WIL WHEATON dot NET: 1.5

Wil,
I completely agree with you! Some of the goings-on of the current administration are truly disturbing and must be addressed. Good for you for speaking out! :D

Brian

: gives Wil thunderous applause :

Sometimes, living in the Land of the Stupid as it seems I do, I feel like I am the only one who doesn't think Shrub is Mr. Wonderful Fearless Leader. I am not alone!

Morons.org did a piece on this as well. There is another article on there where the writer quoted John Ashcroft and responded with this little gem:

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" -Benjamin Franklin.

Of course, reading all the responses on Morons, the right-wingers are already debunking all of this has being non-existant liberal properganda. You know, for a bunch of guys who constantly complain about losing their Constitutional rights they sure are quick to roll over and show their belly when their own are the ones doing it.

Holy crap. Well, I for one wish to hold this up in the face of those in another blog comment threat who said that our rights to free speech were not imperiled. Where do think this will end folks? How far is too far when it comes to threats and intimidation against American citizens for expressing their opinions. My ancestors left England partly because they thought King George was oppressive of their rights. I have no intention of leaving my country because of this King George. I know I will get lashed for saying this, but I'm just about ready to join Michael Moore and demand that Bush resign. (Not that it will do much good with his approval ratings!) But he has not upheld his Oath of Office to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

Holy crap. Well, I for one wish to hold this up in the face of those in another blog comment threat who said that our rights to free speech were not imperiled. Where do think this will end folks? How far is too far when it comes to threats and intimidation against American citizens for expressing their opinions. My ancestors left England partly because they thought King George was oppressive of their rights. I have no intention of leaving my country because of this King George. I know I will get lashed for saying this, but I'm just about ready to join Michael Moore and demand that Bush resign. (Not that it will do much good with his approval ratings!) But he has not upheld his Oath of Office to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

Hey Wil,
Well, I'm Canadian over here, so I dunno what to say... but i'll trust you on the Bush issue!
We have Cretien and he's good sometimes.... but BAD too!
Lily

I agree completely. Just before Memorial Day, I wrote a piece on what makes someone a patriot. To me, one of the key tenets of patriotism is acknowledging your duty to question the practices of those in power. The idea that we should "keep quiet" to show our support and patriotism ... rubbish.

My husband and I have been looking for every piece of info we could get on this incident since reading Wil's post, and I would like to point out that we've come across a discussion of it on an obviously Republican message board, and even most of the people there are appalled and frightened by this event. The issue here is not whether any of us support George W. Bush, but the fact that those participating in what I have to say is probably the most peaceful and unobtrusive methods of protest I've ever heard of were subject to arrest and expulsion. This terrifies me to no end, and does nothing to placate any of my fears about where our society is headed. It would seem that the threat of terrorism has given our government the license to do... well pretty much anything.

Thank you, Wil, for posting those links. When our civil rights are at stake, it is important that our eyes be opened again and again.

M

We are definately not as hardline in enforcing a state of reverence for our leaders down here in Australia. Our media seem to revel in showing up our politicians when they deserve it (and sometimes when they don't...)and our cartoonists make sure we never take our pollies seriously. I love it. Noone has all the right answers, regardless of whether you've been voted into the top office or not - no amount of squelching other people's rights will change that. An interesting article. Thanx!

We are definately not as hardline in enforcing a state of reverence for our leaders down here in Australia. Our media seem to revel in showing up our politicians when they deserve it (and sometimes when they don't...)and our cartoonists make sure we never take our pollies seriously. I love it. Noone has all the right answers, regardless of whether you've been voted into the top office or not - no amount of squelching other people's rights will change that. An interesting article. Thanx!

*Roaring applause!!* Wil you Rock! I am almost wanting to name my first born after you. :D

You know, I find it interesting that so many people who are so eager to question "the establishment" are also so willing to take at face value what they read on the Net. C'mon people, wake up! Just because it says what you want to read doesn't mean you can put your critical thinking skills away!

If I'm not buying what the Administration is selling, and if I'm not buying what the networks are selling, it's going to take a hell of a lot more than a couple of website links to sources with ZERO credibility to convince me that this story is real. I'm not saying it isn't real, I'm just saying I haven't seen enough to convince me it is.

The first-person student account rang VERY false for me and I stopped reading when I got to the part about the state trooper watching him closely after the comment about Bush. Give me a fucking break. Do you REALLY believe this??

It's still America, folks, and if you think Bush sucks, yell it from the rooftops without fear of being dragged away in irons.

Most other conspiracy theories are at least more entertaining than this drivel...

And right now down in Hell, Dick Nixon is gnashing his teeth and muttering, "Protesters in Ohio? All he'll do is expel them? In my day, we had the national guard shoot them. Damn! I wish Islamic extremists had attacked when *I* was the President!"

And right now down in Hell, Dick Nixon is gnashing his teeth and muttering, "Protesters in Ohio? All he'll do is expel them? In my day, we had the national guard shoot them. Damn! I wish Islamic extremists had attacked when *I* was the President!"

Zeno has something to what he says....about maybe not buying too quickly into something we read. So implore Wil's fellow readers to help find some more supporting evidance before the FBI or CIA (aka shrub's thugs) hide it.

I agree with you Wil. I for one don't even follow polotic's but I've seen this kind of stuff before and it's wrong I tell ya!

....and post it here.

Actually, if you read the metafiler further down, there are excerpts from coverage run in the Associated Press and the Washington Post.

I will say, my gut first reaction was a bit stronger than if I had waited an hour before posting. (Always wait an hour after eating before you swim.) While there is no evidence that anyone related to Bush had anything to do with this blatant curtailment of the first amendment. Still it is alarming when our institutions of higher learning are participating in supressing dissent by threat of expulsion and arrest.

Yeah that was on our news. .Oh and way to mention Ohio man. Way to be

Oh and Bush is gay

It's a little thing called "respect". You may disagree with him but he deserves respect as much as everyone here thinks they deserve respect. The "turn your back" group didn't have to show up and disrespect him outright.

Mick Jagger, rock and roll star, was knighted yesterday for services to music. Bush not to be outdone awarded the National Medal of Honor to the Announcer at the Ohio State Commencement for calling for a "thunderous" ovation.

Later in the program several people were removed from the stadium for turning their backs on the president. Bush when asked if that wasn't a violation of their free speech rights said, "Hell No" I guarantee not one of them heard "Simon Says"

Wil,

I'm glad I'm not the only one who is not afraid to openly criticize the government, and encourage others to do so as well. That is what makes our country so great; we have the right to question our public officials. Keep it up, it will be worth it someday.

Dee

Two good points are raised:

1) While I believe it to be very likely that this event actually happened, it would probably be a good idea to maintain a certain amount of skepticism until at least one other person from this graduating class can confirm this story.

2) OSU is VERY culpable in the violation of several student's constitutional rights, and if one points a finger at the Bush administration, one should also point a finger at OSU.

Having said 1&2, my outrage at the steady and un-marked erosion of my constitutional rights stands.

>>wil said: When graduating students are subject to ARREST for an action like turning their backs on a person who they don't respect

>>lea said: It's a little thing called "respect". You may disagree with him but he deserves respect as much as everyone here thinks they deserve respect. The "turn your back" group didn't have to show up and disrespect him outright.

i usually stay out of this stuff, but i want to say this:

respect is NOT a right. it must be earned, and once it is earned it must be maintained.

i'm not talking about respecting every person as an individual with equal rights. that's a given. obviously. (redundantly.)

i'm talking about respect for a person's morals, character, actions, and so on. we should NOT have to automatically grant our respect or esteem to any person. it must be earned.

part of "freedom," etc etc etc, in a democracy, means being "free" to express disrespect as well as respect. again, obviously.

i'm not even american. i have never personally seen direct evidence for any of the accusations against either president bush and his admininistration, or the "left-wing liberals" (quit with the labels, can't we, please? rednecks. ;) ) who make the accusations... i can't judge any of that with any real backup. but respect is not a right, and if you disagree with someone's principles or actions, you are free to express that- whether he's the janitor or the president.

political correctness, fairness, and acceptance of differing beliefs are all well and good. but that shouldn't equate with diluting or reserving your own opinion of what is right and wrong.

(sorry for the long post.)

I read through this but I find that lately a lot of people are trying to dig up conspiracy theories but this nation isn't turning against us. I know it is something to be concerned about but some of the theories just are wild. I think in this instance something was taken way out of context and wasn't fully researched and someone wrote something for hits and ratings. But that's my humble opinion.

Let me start with a blanket statement: I do NOT like Bush. I didn't vote for him, I think he's running this country into the ground, and I am not one of those that stopped criticizing him after 9/11.

That having been said, I have to agree with Zeno above about finding credibility with the first person account of the OSU commencement. Similarly, I'm not saying it didn't or couldn't happen, but what disturbs me is the way that people are willing to take such things at face value, without question. Whatever happened to critical thinking?

After digging around this story for a bit, I found this quote posted from a AP filing:

"Bush was invited to speak at the Ohio State commencement by representatives of the graduating class. But immediately before class members filed into the giant football stadium, an announcer instructed the crowd that all the university's speakers deserve to be treated with respect and that anyone demonstrating or heckling could be subject to expulsion and arrest. The announcer urged a "thunderous" ovation for outgoing university President William Kirwan. Bush, too, was heavily applauded."

Yes, this sounds like the kind of bullshit thing too many colleges and universities are pulling these days. (Didn't Dennis Miller say something like, "In my day, colleges WERE the free speech zones" recently?) And sure, I can buy into the fact that they wouldn't want any openly critical or embarrassing displays against Bush. But that anonymous first person account was just too soupy.

For what's is worth, Wil, I don't think you're anti-American; I think you're about as American as they come (hey, you like video games, criticizing your government, and the word-fragment "hella"). My main point is: be careful of getting sucked into stuff you find on the Net, and NEVER take off your Skeptic Hat.

Hey ISABEL,

Preach on. thats all i got to say about that

Hey ISABEL,

Preach on. thats all i got to say about that

Wil,

I am a Bush supporter. However I believe every person has a right to express their opinion. The only anti-Americans are the ones calling you an anti-American for expressing your 1st ammendment rights. I live in Texas (yes the land where you can get a lethal injection on just about every street corner) and I believe there are many good qualities about Mr. Bush however with the good come the bad. I am completely with you on the privacy and freedom issues. I believe to many Men, women, mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, sons, and daughters have given up their lives to make our lives better. What the Bush Administration is trying to do is wrong. In a day like the day we live in everyone is afraid but giving in to terrorists is giving them exactly what they want. I believe to many americans have lost their lives to make this country what it is today. Preach on Wil we support you.
Josh Sol

Dear Wil --

I live in the Philippines -- a country that was once colonized, and is currently dominated by US foreign/political policy (for which state of affairs our government shares a good deal of responsibility). A country that, during World War II, saw Filipinos enlisting in the US Armed Forces because they were promised American citizenship if they fought for America (the Philippines was a colony of the US back then, and due for independence) -- men who gave up the best years of their lives during WWII, and as old and weary veterans, spent even more years in the United States working at any kind of job, just to get that precious "resident alien" or "blue passport" status -- so that they could send for their children and watch a new generation make a better life for themselves in "the land of the free". (Imagine a retired Colonel, 65 years old, a Bataan Death March survivor, working as a *security guard*!! But that's another story.)

Despite all the bad water under the bridge, many Filipinos continue to believe that America is the best place in the world to live in. When you report incidents like this one, it is scary to think that a "bastion of democracy" as the United States, can resort to repressive measures equal to anything employed in the Marcos martial law era.

I hope saner minds soon prevail over such actions. The peaceful expression of dissent is a healthy thing, whether in politics or in the family.

Than you, Mr. Wheaton, for coming out in support of the Constitution. As far as I am concerned, you have done more to fight terrorism than the entire Bush Administration and its stupid war in Afghanistan.

By preserving our freedom and democracy, we can defeat the goals of the terrorists.

Thanks for the link. Knowing is half the battle.
And now I know there is a battle.

I can tell you now as a distant observer in Australia; I and most of my friends think its all pure insanity. And what is worse is that the media doesnt have the guts to just call it plain old WAR.
It has to be a WAR ON TERRORISM. Oh... that must make it right. *note sarcasm*

This is a question of RESPECT. You may hate Bush (Wil), you make like him (me), but it is the position of President of the United States that should be respected. Those protesters are just ignorant, emotional fools, they hate Bush for no good reason. Yeah Bush beat the hell out of Gore, so F-ing what? Just because there weren't enough dead people and illegals to get Gore elected is no reason to hate Bush! They should respect the office of the President.
I know that Clinton almost destroyed any respect the office held, Bush has restored it nicely! After all smoking 'dipped' cigars, getting bj's under the desk while talking to forign leaders and commiting perjury is not enough to get expelled from office. What has Bush done for people to get so mad at him? NOTHING! It is just an illogical ideological hatred. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, or cigar if you prefer?
Let us not forget it is the Left (and titles are very good, thank you) that refused to support Israel in her defense from the "Palestian" barbarian animals, and the Right that expressed its support! Who are the fascists the new nazis? It is the liberal left and the A-rabs. Yes, the A-rabs have pictures of OBL in their houses, remind you of an AH we all know? This new axis of evil must be smashed, the terrorists=nazis and MUST BE KILLED! Got that kiddies? I think Bush, if anything is coddling them too much.
Oh yeah, Wil "move to Afghanistan" you "anti-American", you. lol;>

NEVER AGAIN!
LONG LIVE NYC, SUPPORT THOSE WHO SUPPORT HER!

"Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's Liberty Teeth and keystone under independence. To ensure peace, security, ans happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference. They deserve a place of honour with all that is good." - George Washington

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of firearms." - Thomas Jefferson

Respect or not, you should NOT be arrested for turning your back on someone! Assaulting him verbally or physically.. yes. But peacefully turning your back?

Sieg Heil!

WTF is this country coming to?

I challenge you to confirm this UNNAMED guy's account from a legitimate news source. They may have stated that if people DISRUPTED the event, then they would be expelled from it. This nonsense about being arrested for turning your back is, well, have you ever heard the term "urban legend?"

No one is going to be arrested for turning their backs. However, if they make an actual disruption that prevents the event from proceeding, that would be grounds to be kicked out or even arrested depending on the seriousness. If I came to one of your comedy shows and stood up and yelled through the whole thing would you say nothing and respect my "constitutional right?" If so, I challenge you to let anyone come to every one of your shows and disrupt the event and you promise not to have security throw them out!!!! Again, look to verify these silly urban myths before you publish them as fact!!!

Ah, MatrixRaven, I see you are practising for the next Liberal president.

I prefer to close with "Never Again", but you may end your thought how you wish, intersting it should be that!

Auf Wiedersien

LONG LIVE NYC!

Kind of reminds me of the left trying to be the thought police in a public institution as well. A "professor" at Berkeley, wrote the following course description for a class called "The Politics and Poetics of Palestinian Resistance." This is was the original description of the course. Please note the last sentence.

Course Description: Since the inception of the Intifada in September of 2000, Palestinians have been fighting for their right to exist. The brutal Israeli military occupation of Palestine, an occupation that has been ongoing since 1948, has systematically displaced, killed and maimed millions of Palestinian people. And yet, from under the brutal weight of the occupation, Palestinians have produced their own culture and poetry of resistance. This class will examine the history of the Palestinian resistance and the way that it is narrated by Palestinians in order to produce an understanding of the Intifada and to develop a coherent political analysis of the situation. This class takes as its starting point the right of Palestinians to fight for their own self-determination. Conservative thinkers are encouraged to seek other sections.

The left is at it as well with their agenda, Wil. They changed the course description of this class because of the public outcry. Sheesh, if you think a certain way, seek other sections. What a crock.

The Simon Wiesenthal Center had an article about it: http://www.wiesenthal.com/social/press/pr_item.cfm?ItemID=5711

Also, at the University of South Carolina, (snipped from an article)

"On Jan. 16, 2002, Professor Lynn Weber of the University of South Carolina’s (USC) Women Studies Program distributed a syllabus to the students in her seminar. Among other things, the syllabus included a list of “Guidelines for Classroom Discussion.” In order to participate in class discussion (20 percent of each student’s final grade), the guidelines ruled, students in Professor Weber’s class must first “acknowledge that racism, classism, sexism, heterosexism, and other institutionalized forms of oppression exist.” The guidelines go on to require that prospective students further agree that “we are all systematically taught misinformation about our own group and about members of other groups,” that “this is true for members of privileged and oppressed groups,” and that students must “agree to combat actively the myths and stereotypes about our groups and other groups.”

Quite a mouthful for the first day of class. The problem with all this is not so much that Professor Weber believes that institutionalized “racism, classism, sexism, heterosexism, and other institutionalized forms of oppression” exist (maybe, maybe not) nor even that “we are all systematically taught misinformation about our own group and about members of other groups” (a judgment from which one must suppose Weber generously exempts herself). The problem is that Weber proposes turning these exquisitely debatable propositions into articles of faith on penalty of a reduced grade. Believe otherwise — or so her syllabus would seem to suggest — and you will suffer the consequences."

Yep, McCarthy would be proud of both sides.

To combat this from either side, I personally read news from both points of view, listen to conservative and liberal news sources so I get a a well rounded version of the news. Then I feel I'm getting a good representation and can make up my own opinion from there.

Sorry for the long post...
Anne

While looking through Metafiler (cool site, by the way!) I found another apparent example. This one is to someone who is here on a visa and attended the same Mosque as Padilla when he was in Florida. They're holding him now on immigration charges, whatever that means. They haven't said that he's actually done anything, or really that he's THOUGHT of doing something. Here's what they have said:

"We have suspicions; that's it," a federal source told the Herald. "We are working hard right now to run this all out. We have reason to believe this man has extremist views. They were friends and they attended the same Fort Lauderdale mosque."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=578&e=5&cid=578&u=/nm/20020615/ts_nm/attack_dirtybomb_arrest_dc_1

Echoing a poster on Metafiler... Pardon me.... I was under the impression that holding extremist views was legal in America.

I'll hold my judgement on this until I hear more or until time has passed and we've heard nothing.

Oh, preemptive comment: Yes, non-citizens do enjoy Constitutional protections, although not all the rights of citizens, such as the right to vote.

You're on the way to end up like Nazi-Germany. All the signs are there. Do they not teach you history in school anymore?

On another note, just how was the US democratically elected to be protector of the 'free' world? When was the job of policing the whole planet officially handed over? And by whom? Who decides which countries are evil? Do the people get a say? Because that's what democracy is all about, right?

Just wondering...

No, I'm not anti-American, just asking questions.....

NYC:
People don't dislike Bush because he beat Gore (although that's something).

It's because he's an underqualified former crack addict who has about as much intelligence as my ancient neurotic terrier.

I am NOT exaggerating.

The Bush administration has taken great pains to hide the president's lack of higher intelligence, going so far as to script him making jokes about it in his heavily scripted speeches. He dodges important, controversial questions. He rarely speaks without a prewritten speech in front of him.

Please don't tell me he's the most qualified man in the country. I respect the office, if only because it's a powerful one, but there is no way in hell I can respect a man, a 'leader of the free world', who knows less about the world than most cheerleaders I know.

Ah yes Annie, History is the key here.
Once upon a time there was an Evil Empire called the Soviet Union. In an effort to prevent the destuction of the US and other free nations they banded together in something called NATO. These brave nations then defended weaker nations from the Communist hordes attempting to conquer the planet. Now we have evil people (terrorists)trying to kill everyone who doesn't squat like they do, to Allah. (Even some who do, but we wont get into that.) So, the US is trying to protect itself and her allies from the new hordes.

Got it? Probably not based on your question. But, good luck!

NEVER AGAIN!
DEFEND LIBERTY, DEFEND OUR RIGHT TO EXIST!

After reading this, i'm suddenly flashed back to some "suspected" "dirty-bomb" "terrorist" (lets see how many alarms i set off in the CIA's monitoring system with this one!) who has been held for 4 months now, WITHOUT being charged, and is an AMERICAN CITIZEN.

... Now, let me say at the moment that i'm as certin as anyone else that the mentioned person probably should NOT be on the streets and we are definatley safer with him in custody, but, my point is the same as Uncle Willies...

When our basic freedoms are trampled on for the sake of the "greater whole", or as Bush and company call it, "Homeland security" (isnt that what the national guard, CIA and FBI DO???!!!) its not so far a cry between some muslum looking character to act as a scape goat for Bush's ego and poll's, and our dearly beloved Uncle Willy or even yours truely being snatched up in the middle of the night for "turning our back" on our dear and wonderful leader.

Anyone got some spare barf bags from the airplane?? I feel a projectile coming up quick.

I would suggest that everyone reading this send a copy of that letter to their local news stations and even the national ones, hell, anyone who may listen-- (did someone mention Dinnis Miller??) Lets see what we can cook up eh?

Mike

Hi KJG, interesting initials. Much like the KGB, an evil arm of a communist state. Hmm, are you a communist? Do you like those who beat, tortured and killed American servicemen and allies of the cause of freedom? Probably not, it is likely just your initials.

Anyway, Bush has a Masters degree in History? Do you have a masters degree in... anything? Probably not, but you and your terrier so much smarter than W. Every smart politician uses a prepared speech, even Lincoln he kept them in his hat! Do you think he was dumb too?

NEVER AGAIN!

So this war on terrorism is NATO's then?? I don't see many NATO countries fighting in Afghanistan. When was the vote held in the NATO assembly to declare war?

I grew under the shadow of Soviet Comunism in a little country called Denmark. We are NATO too. But what is going on in the US now is not so very different to what the Russian people suffered under Soviet rule. No freedom of speech, arrest for dissent, secret police etc.
Stalin's Soviet regime was little different to Hitler's.
How will yours differ?

Hi Annie, while I greatly respect Denmark, the US was attacked and we do not need their help. No vote needs to be taken, the US was attacked we have the right and duty to defend our citizens from barbarians. I assume then the US should allow millions of her citizens to be slaughtered, until NATO says, "thats enough!" well bullocks to that, as my English friends would say. God Bless Britannia. One of our true friends. They understand who is Hitler, and it isn't Bush.
If you can't see the difference between the Soviets and the US then I pity you.

NEVER AGAIN! DEFEND FREEDOM!

NYC:
Yes, KJB=my initials.

You're so smart, being able to see the similarities to the former Soviet Union's intelligence agency's acronym and my name. Bravo. You've now hit the same level of intelligence as a 2nd grader.

I'm well aware most politicians use prepared speeches. My point is, the man doesn't speak without one. EVER. The difference here between Bush and say, Clinton or Lincoln, is that those men didn't RELY on the prewritten speech. They were both able to speak extemporaneously, and often quite well.

As for the "Communist hordes", I think you (Strabolgi) are overreacting. Indeed, the hordes of Muslims you so worry about aren't really hordes at all.

I refer the honorable Gentleman to the questions
I gave some moments ago.

And if you cannot see the direction in which you are headed, I pity you.

Give the man a cigar!

Though we (the UK population) could've told you what was going to happen 18 months ago. It's truly dispicable what Bush and his co-horts are up to over there at the minute. Though admittedly we have our own problems over here at the minute with a *President* who thinks that if he ignores people for long enough, the problems will go away.

I think this whole "new world order" shit is gonna spiral outta control just now, and we will really see change in the way we live our lives.

Remember when we used to talk of "the revolution"?

It's [really] just around the corner...

And Strabolgi:
Denmark also knew Hitler.

Do you understand what you are saying when you say "Defend Freedom", and then implicitly agree with the trampling of Constitutional rights the next moment?

The dichotomy astounds me.

Hey tunde -

The revolution will not be televised! :)

KJB, if you don't think that there are hordes of A-rabs waiting to kill us, then go to Iran and live a year with them and see how quickly they slit your throat like a hog.
If they aren't hordes then what would you call a group that have swayed destruction, erradicating civilization, after civilization and replacing those they executed with their own kind. For example Egypt, those living there today are nothing like the ancient Egyptians, why the 'muslims' killed them ALL. They want the same for all other civilized nations. They want to kill you and me and I find that offensive.

NYC

As for the whole Masters in History deal -

Did he have any idea where Afghanistan was? Does he know now?
Has he learned anything from history?
Does he remember the difficulties of fighting a land war in Asia?

A degree is something you can buy nowadays. I still have little respect for him.

Hey, Wil... long time reader, first time caller. I am glad to see that people are not afraid of stating their true feelings about our "president". I myself voted for Nader. I am on a Rocky Horror cast here in wisconsin, and even we have a callback expressing our displeasure at the president... not too sure how many people here are familiar with this cult movie... but in any case, during the creation scene, Columbia says 'he's ok' Frank angrily responds 'OK?' (audience shouts "What do you think of George W Bush?") Frank then says 'I Think we can do better than that!' This usually elicits a lot of cheers from people. Sorry if this is offtopic, but I seem to think for some reason that it is related.

Actually, NYC, President Bush Jr. has a Bachelors in History (Yale) and a Masters in Business Administration (Harvard).

Although I'm not sure either fact is terribly meaningful to this conversation.

NYC:
If you truly believe that all Muslims are out to kill all Americans, then I'm sorry. I'm sorry your world is that skewed.

The "A-rab" phrase merely shows your own ignorance and bigotry.

I hope you learn inner peace sometime, as well as history.

Historically, the Muslim expansion of its early years was carried out by military conquest, yes. But if you were a Jew back then, where was it safer to live? In Muslim areas.
During Europe's "Dark Ages", Muslim countries advanced the sciences and the arts, building upon the Greek texts that Westerners had seen fit to chuck out the window.

So don't you DARE tell me that all "A-rabs" are killers and propagators of an evil, parasitic, cannibalistic culture.

Thanks, BBROCK, for clearing that up :)

KJB, there is no f-ing dichotomy, these are incredible times, which require non-standard responses. That is why it is a WAR.
Again, they want US dead. What part of dead befuddles you?
What part of the world does Bush not understand, he made it very clear, you are with US or against US. Those who support killing US (terrorist) are the enemy, those who want to support those killing US, the A-rabs, are the enemy. Again terrorist=nazi!

Annie, we are headed in the direction of defending ourselves, if that offends you, don't come here, don't buy stuff from here. 'Nuf said.

NEVER AGAIN

Terrorist does not equal Nazi.

NYC, there IS a dichotomy. You say, Yes, fight for freedom. But you don't mind destroying freedom in order to do this. Don't you see?

There is no war. It is a war in name only; there has been no congressional declaration.

Please, for your sake, think about what you are proposing. If nothing else, contemplate calling someone an A-rab, and how that is a bigoted remark, especially when referring to a whole group as a murdering bunch of Nazis.

I wish I had more time to talk, but I've got to get some sleep.

Have the terrorists frightened you so much, NYC, that you would be willing to give up your right to free speech, to free thought, to many of the freedoms you and I take for granted, so that a percieved threat can be hopefully squashed?

Have you let them win?

Peace out, folks.

Being a Brit, I don't feel I have enough information to comment properly on Bush. So I won't.
However, recent events over *here* make me despair. When a government has one of the biggest majorities ever, you would expect it to feel fairly secure. But our present government has spent the past five years desperately trying to manage the press - while chastising us for being cynical and apathetic! Read about the latest sorry tale, still ongoing, at http://www.spectator.co.uk/article.php3?table=old§ion=current&issue=2002-06-15&id=1956
Grrrrrrrrrrrr.

No KJB, I don't believe that all muslims want to kill americans, just the 99.9% of them I call A-rabs, live I would say Nazi to describe someone evil. In case you haven't noticed A-rabs are funding homicide bombers to kill Jews, and training other A-rabs to kill me, that offends me okay? I don't want them to kill me, sorry.
I think you apty described them "killers and propagators of an evil, parasitic, cannibalistic culture." I would add satanic and pedophiles to that though.

NEVER AGAIN! NEVER!

Hey Wil, heres a little confirmation of that letter you came across...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020614/ap_to_po/bush_7

KJB, good point about Denmark and Hitler.
My mother's uncle was tortured to death by the Gestapo for helping a jewish family escape to Sweden. Doubtles he would have been called a terrorist by the Germans (that word was invented much later) but to us and Denmark, he was a hero and a freedom fighter.
I, in no way condone terrorism, but to hear some of you talk...
Read 'Mein Kampf' and see what I mean.
Hitler as well as McCarthy would have been proud...
A dictatorship by any other name still stinks as bad.
*my apologies to the Bard*

What freedom is being destroyed, the 'right' to swarm into the US undocumented. The right to plot to kill innocent civilians with a all types of devices, including radioactive ones. Sorry, someone plotting with terrorists=nazis, then I'm glad the Government is stopping them.
What you refer to as a right, is not it is simply a temporary measure, a little inconvience. I would rather see one guy inconvienced than 3000 Americans dead, sorry you don't.
As for the speech, who the hell knows, but those that want to be disrepectful to the guest speakers and graduates, who worked years to get their degrees should be ashamed. If they want to protest, go out side. Inside they should give the same respect, they would want. It is called common decency, which is not common today at all, how unfortunate!

CAN THE bin laden!

Annie, My Uncle fought the Nazis in the air force in France. He was brave but I consider your Great Uncle to be a hero! I'm truly sorry and sickened by what happened to your Great Uncle, his soul will surely forever reside in heaven. The evil nazis would have called him a traitor, but he IS a hero, and those like him too. I can not see a way anyone could be more brave.
Also, I tried to read AH's diatribe, but was too confused and bored to read it all. The pig was a terrible writer, so I didn't read it all. I hope that is okay? I don't think my body contains enough vomit to read the whole thing.
Please, McCarthy was a drunken fool - but AH was evil and you give him too much credit comparing to a moron like McCarthy.

CNN is also reporting that the crowd at Ohio State was told to behave or be arrested. It's in the last paragraph of this story.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/06/14/bush.ohiostate.ap/index.html

The problem I have with the coverage is that it is all the same and almost the same wording. Journalists tend to use other news reports as sources for their stories, which isn't good. So, I still haven't seen quite enough to be definitive about what actually happened.

You would think that someone would have had their camcorder going at the time and has captured it. So, I'm sure if it did happen the way the reports sound, we will know about it in the next day or so.

Off topic. Sorry. But since the war is the issue behind this issue, I thought people might be interested in this story from the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/16/opinion/16DOWD.html

QUOTE:

Classified investigations of the Qaeda threat now under way at the F.B.I. and C.I.A. have concluded that the war in Afghanistan failed to diminish the threat to the United States, the officials said. Instead, the war might have complicated counterterrorism efforts by dispersing potential attackers across a wider geographic area.

Unbelievable, the nazis are coming back to power. Why do i even bother to vote?

I have a few points I would like to make"

1. College students, while intelligent, do not have the life experiences that many of us already have. I should know cause I was one of them. I can tell you that I had some stupid opinions at the time, mainly because I was young and just had not experienced the real world yet. I usually don't put too much stock in the opinion of someone who just moved out of mom and dad's basement and spend Friday nights getting wasted.

2. I agree that respect should be shown to any speaker at a college, be they the president or anyone else. If you have a problem with that person, don't go to the speech. Stay home, write you congressperson, create a website against their policies, or better yet, VOTE! To boo, hiss, or turn your back on someone speaking, especially one of your elders is not only rude, it's immature. Wow, immature behavior at a college. Imagine that. (Can someone say hazing?)

3. Finally, hecklers get booted from many events and no one ever cries that their Constitutional rights are being violated. If you go to a concert, a comedy club, any kind of speech and start causing trouble, security is going to kick your ass out.

Now I am not a big fan of Dubya, but I think this incident is being blown WAY out of proportion here. There are ways to behavior in a society and what some of these students did is just not it.

It is scarey to think that Bush claims to run the greatest democracy in the world and yet does this kind of thing. What worries me more is that here in the UK Tony Blair is going down the same road with his obsession for 'media friendly Tony' (now available with football for a quick kick-about and stylish Sven glasses for 'Ulrika appeal'). With this sort of thing going on how can we go out into the world claiming they must follow our act. We're all with Wil on this one I think.

Hey Wil, I saw the same story at http://www.mediawhoresonline.com/

Check out this post. http://www.safesearching.com/boards/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=221&t=000340

At Bill Maher's new forum board.
http://www.safesearching.com/boards/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=221

http://www.livejournal.com/talkread.bml?journal=nonviolent&itemid=94232

I first heard of this from a person on Livejournal posting about their experiences at the event. According to the above account, there was no protesting, no heckling, no being loud or disruptive. They simply stood, and turned their backs when he began talking.

Well, this is interesting. It's the article from the Ohio State student newspaper. It's about the protest. But there is no mention of the announcement. I'm wondering if we've been had. I guess time will tell. Someone had to have a camcorder going.

http://thelantern.com/news/255720.html

Sinkerhawk, you wrote:

"College students, while intelligent, do not have the life experiences that many of us already have."

College students are not all starry-eyed 22 year olds who've never held a job more taxing than part time work at the mall. It's 2002 and they come from all ages and all life experiences.

"I had some stupid opinions at the time, mainly because I was young and just had not experienced the real world yet."

Be that as it may, unless you personally know all the people involved and feel qualified to judge the validity of their opinions...

"If you have a problem with that person, don't go to the speech."

Sounds like the people who said "if you have a problem with a prayer being read at graduation, then don't attend graduation."

Graduation is about the graduates, first and foremost. For them and often (for the most part) paid for by them, even. It's not about the speaker.

"To boo, hiss, or turn your back on someone speaking, especially one of your elders is not only rude, it's immature."

Elders and ergo betters? Then maybe everyone here should report their age and whoever's the oldest should then be allowed to take the floor and lead the discussion without "immature" dispute?

Being an older person, I'd love to rest on that laurel, but I'm old enough to know age doesn't mean ca-ca. It's what you've done with it.

It's not "immature" to dissent. Sometimes the rationale is weak, sometimes the method is unnecessarily disruptive, but protesting in itself is not immature. In fact, choosing to silently turn away from a person is one of the most "mature" forms of protest I can imagine.

"hecklers get booted from many events and no one ever cries that their Constitutional rights are being violated."

Sometimes they do, as it happens, but is turning away from a person the same as heckling? Forget that, is it appropriate to be told that the years, money, and effort spent working to earn a degree will be made null and void and that you'll be subject to criminal prosecution if you turn your back on a government employee?

"There are ways to behavior in a society and what some of these students did is just not it."

These "ways" are enumerated in legal documents, not an individual citizen's ideology. Please cite your source for the behaviour at Ohio State being unlawful, or better yet, unconstitutional.

Wil,

Our country has slowly been sliding toward our present Police State since the Reagan era. It began subtly with the stripping of teen-agers rights - in the name of what was best for them, of course - and we stood by, casually, apathetically, and we said, "Maybe the government is right. Maybe sixteen is too young to smoke, or eighteen is too young to drink, or maybe curfews are, indeed, the answer, or the right to peaceful assemblage IS actually trespassing and loitering after all. Perhaps the police NEED more authority to pull people over, randomly, and harass them, since, after all, a young person out after ten is criminal, or a motorist at 2 a.m. must be drunk, or a nonwhite in a white neighborhood HAS to be grounds for suspicion... but, just in case, there's always that "crossed the double-yellow line" excuse... (Hey, the cops got away with the Rodney King thing, right?) Grr.

(As a man who is half Puerto Rican, I can say this. I have been pulled over 17 times in the last three years. I have yet to get a ticket. 50% of the time I've been asked, "Sir, whose car is this?" True story.)

We thought, just maybe... we need the government to show us the way. After all, parents don't know how to parent anymore. (That person spanks her child!) We're ignorant to interpersonal relationships. (All men cheat on their wives! I saw it on Young & the Restless! He's gay! That's it! They're what's wrong with the world! Why didn't we see this before? Because, you idiot! There was no Oprah before! Duh! Or Geraldo, or Ricki, or Montel...)

We have become what we have allowed ourselves to become, as we've been conditioned to be, to look on other people, other ways of life, or other lifestyles, "abnormal activities", our neighbors, with 1950s' paranoid suspicion. We're the ones who allowed the government to take us by the hand and say, "Come this way. You're not living right. Neither is your neighbor. We will show you how it's done. The right way. And, hey, if your neighbor isn't with the program, let us know, okay? We'll... help him see the light. We have a whole army of social service workers to teach them..."

And we all went, like SHEEP, because the government became the keeper of our conscience, and because the media were the teachers of our morals, and television showed us how we were supposed to be living, and as long as we stayed in line and kept our blinders on, the world was just as rosy and peachy as they told us it would be. And we traded our personal liberties for the sake of our children and our nation.

(Tell me, does neighborhood watch translate to spy on your neighbor?)

And the sensationalist media demonized everything about people's lives, using crack, AIDS, and even "out of wedlock" pregnancy as broadswords - amongst many others - to keep us off guard and to justify vulgar invasions of privacy until slowly, methodically, we were a twisted paragon of what political correctness called "normal", with a whole library filled with new laws designed to keep everyone and everything in check.

And WE wielded those broadswords proudly as we all chanted "Just say no!" or "Just do it!" and helped the government "fix" what was wrong with this country... by eliminating things that were different, or that we didn't understand, or that we believed were wrong, under the guise of what was BEST for America.

And little by little, either violence or apathy replaced weekend beer parties, and guns and gangs became the norm for our kids. And music became the psychopathic representation of the times. And we became the inheritors of a stone-fisted, black and white society without the gray area where the oxygen used to be. We tolerated the loss of individuality with the same ease we allowed a man to deface the office of the Presidency, as we are now allowing this massive, Big Brother Government of OUR OWN creation strip us of what little liberty we have left. This is NOT the beginning, Wil. We are at the top of the mountain looking down on all we trampled when we allowed the government to lead us here.

(I liked it better when everyone minded their own damned business, personally.)

Yet remember... all we had to do to get here was turn away from others as THEIR rights were slowly whittled away, while we basked in the good life the economy was providing. But, as we were told, it was for the good of the many to repress a mere few...

... and to our eternal shame, we believed them.

George W. Bush is not the beginning of this, he's the apex. We are, as I said, at the top now. If we were moral, we would have held Bill Clinton to a higher standard.

(Like it, or not, we allowed a President to commit perjury, and we even justified it for him in the name of "privacy", as if the man was more important than what the Office of the President stands for. Was the battle with Nixon not partly over our right to know that what's being done behind closed doors is TRULY in the best interest of the nation, that our voices are being heard, and that the PRESIDENT is NOT above the LAW? I'm not debating this. The man MUST live up to the responsibility... and GWB has to, too.)

Wil, if we were a society that cherished liberty, we would have fought hard for the rights of others long before the "Goose-steppers" made it to our door. Do you not yet see where we are at this moment in time in our country?

"... and when they came for me, there was nobody left to say anything."

Here is some food for thought, my friend:

You said:

"If we allow the Bush Administration to goose-step all over our civil rights, and we sit back quietly while Ashcroft dances all over the constitution, we no longer have a country worth fighting for."

Consider this instead, because we've already been doing all THAT since 1980:

Perhaps... this is exactly the time to START fighting... before there really is no one left to say anything.

Yours with Regards,

JJ Christopher

WHOA!
Bush has been a thorn since the Florida voting massacre. The Republican voting intitiative hit an all time low when valid votes were not counted, yet they gave cigarrettes to homeless people to get their vote.
We are even unlucky enough to have his brother for Govenor. C'mon Reno!

Hi people.

I read the article you gave us the link to the other day, Wil. Thanks. I have to tell you guys something. My opinion.

I still remember when I saw the twin towers that day, and I still remember the pain when I saw such a tragedy. I couldn't really understand it. I can't understand why people have to be so mean to each other. Why we have to kill each other. I've never understood the wars.

I WANT peace. I want to say that I'm not happy about Bush and his politics. I do understand that some of the Americans wants revenge, but I can't understand why we have to bomb a country because of this. Innocent people are also living in Afghanistan. Young people, children.

Is this right? To kill people? We say that it's wrong to kill people, but still we kill back? I don't think that justice is done with murder.

We're all a part of this, and even though many people died September 11, many other people died other places too. If we could only find another way out of this. If we could stop the war. We have to stop the war, before it's too late. Through the years we have managed to make it almost impossible to find another solution than war, and it really hurts me. We gotta stand together, before we can do something about it.

I'm not telling negative things about the Americans. I'm telling all that if we have to stop war and cruelty we have to stand together. We have to think of another solution than war.

It won't help to bomb Afghanistan. They will only get mad. They are already angry I'm pretty sure. Osama Bin Laden and the others should have thought about what would happen. When they planned the attack on WTC. It would only make the Americans angry. It's clear that the Americans are angry and hurt, but if we keep on bombing each other we could go on forever. If we keep on killing each other the peace will never come. We gotta stop this.

"Run to the rescue with love and peace will follow" River Phoenix

Take care.

Peace, Helene

I know we are not supposed to use this comment area as a BBS, and I promise this will be the last time I do so, but I just can't stand by and let some of these things be said without responding.

To those who are crying out that it is a matter of respect, and that the President deserves respect, I would say this:

As President, a great part of his duty to us, the people of this country who elected him and pay him to do his job, is to uphold the constitution. The right to disagree with our leaders and to peacefully demonstrate that is constitutionally protected, and as far as I am concerned once he has disrespected the constitution he forfeits any right he ever had to respect from me or anyone else who treasures their constitutional rights. Those rights are, after all, what makes this country great.

The office of President is an elected one, and his duty is to us, not the other way around.

M

I'm glad Wil takes the time to post about stuff like this, to post what is true and right. That's why I think it's an opportune time for him to make up on a promise that he's broken. Last year he posted a story about Bush sending money to the Taliban that I informed him was not true. He kindly thanked me and said he'd look into it. No correction was posted. Further emails were not responded to. But now would be a great time to post the truth.

Wow - lotta confusion in this thread - and even one guy posting under two names - must have trouble getting his point across I guess.

Let's see now; War on Terrorism, War on Drugs, War on Poverty, War on Inflation - hmmmmm how many wars can we maintain at any one time? I find it odd that we can fight in conflicts and lose thousands of lives a month and calmly refer to it as a "police action", then invade a dusty defeated, disorganised and mostly destroyed country and call it a "war" in which the highest number of allied casualties was the result of our own "friendly" fire.

What happened on 9/11 was an evil act, but once that act had occurred there was a need for greater consideration prior to action.

WHAT? you say, and let those bastards get away?

Well sorry, but we rushed it and they DID get away, the small fish we have behind razor wire in Cuba were ours for the taking anyway.

And a little thought as to WHY people hate us so much would not go astray - it is not just because they are "A-rabs" and we are amaericans (and who by the way are you defining as an "A-rab"? Iranians? - Persian, Afghans? - afghan, turks? - turkic, Somalis? - African, Pakistanis? - various tribes from indian subcontinent.)

I could go on, but I truly believe that if people were able to use the brains that god givt'em then we would not be in such a fine pickle of a discussion.

THINK, the thoughts you are afraid to think
READ, the words you do not agree with
SPEAK, your mind without fear
ACT, to all with compassion
SEE, the truth that ALL humans must be given the same rights and opportunities and that OUR way is not always the best way.

I will stand when Mr Bush enters a room because he holds the office of President of the United States of America, but if he wants respect then he will have to earn it, because I too share the planet with him and my life and rights are equal to his.

Shari, I disagree with just about everything you said. Big surprise. I know that if I was giving a speech, I would be very offended if people came to it just to turn around and ignore me. It's an insult in the most childish form. I did not like Clinton at all, but when he came near my hometown to give a speech, I would never in a million years gone out to insult him or belittle him in any way. That's just how I was raised. I would disagree with what he said or did, but I would never insult him in person.

I also consider age to be a big factor in life experiences. I've been out of college for about ten years now and my whole attitude has changed. I have begun to realize that a lot of the things I believed in were because of my own ignorance and youth. I still say that college students are the last group of people I would look to for guidance in life AND politics.

You are right, it is not against the law for a person to heckle or ignore someone giving a speech, but it is well within the rights of the school to remove and expel disrespectful students, especially if the school feels that their actions go against the moral structure that the university is founded on. Legally, I have the right to call you names and make fun of you on this forum. The police will not arrest me, the FBI is not going to haul me in, but Wil can censor me, he can remove my post, he can ban me for life. That is his prerogative because this is HIS forum just like Bush's speech was on the SCHOOL'S grounds. If I invited someone over to a party and you came to make fun of them or insult them, you better believe you would be out sitting on the street in no time.

Just because I can legally do something does not make it right.

Ok, who was arrested? Anyone?

Did Bush or his officers escort people out, or was it the school?

I can't defend Bush here, because according to all the links, HE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING TO ANYONE.

On the other hand, when Clinton spoke, and anyone protested, he DID have them arrested. The secret service arrested numerous people, and he even had the irs audit them.

Wil. I'm disappointed in you. I thought you were a little more fair minded. But it seems you, and many people here, are eager to see the worst, even when it isn't there.

Ok, who was arrested? Anyone?

Did Bush or his officers escort people out, or was it the school?

I can't defend Bush here, because according to all the links, HE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING TO ANYONE.

On the other hand, when Clinton spoke, and anyone protested, he DID have them arrested. The secret service arrested numerous people, and he even had the irs audit them.

Wil. I'm disappointed in you. I thought you were a little more fair minded. But it seems you, and many people here, are eager to see the worst, even when it isn't there.

Well, this topic is all over the place now and some of the points being raised are completely ridiculous. Nazi Germany? Police State? Please. Things are far from perfect in this country, but it's still the best damned place to be if you want to think and act FREELY. I don't know, people here (and everywhere) seem to eat up this hyperbolic BS with a spoon, but when you mention Nazis and police states, you lose me and your point (if you have one) is immediately sent to the Null & Void Department.

Anyway, back to what I hope is still the issue...

In reading the links I saw in subsequent posts, all I can see is reference to the announcer suggesting that Bush receive a "thunderous ovation." I can now see that the conspiracy theorists MOST LIKELY took this admittedly poorly considered phrase and ran with it. I doubt that the rest happened, but at least I can see where it started. We'll see. I still admit the possibility it MIGHT be true, but I'm now more skeptical than I was before.

I don't know which is more ridiculous, that people take the time to try to make these things up, that other people buy them so readily, or that still others take the time to look into it and post on it trying to convince others that The X-Files is fiction and the sky is not falling.

Actually would it have mattered if it was GWB or the President of the Local Knitting Guild? If people have a right to protest, then that should be respected no matter who the speaker - from the sounds of the planned protest it was unobtrusive - no heckling etc.

I object to loud heckling or interjections simply because freedom of speech also needs to be extended to the person you are protesting against - and it also marks you as a rude individual who does not want to hear an opposing viewpoint.

If students and others were removed for simply turning their backs, then that is truly crass.

If Clinton had people removed for protesting, then he is equally guilty.

I want to comment on M's post:

"As President, a great part of his duty to us, the people of this country who elected him and pay him to do his job, is to uphold the constitution. The right to disagree with our leaders and to peacefully demonstrate that is constitutionally protected, and as far as I am concerned once he has disrespected the constitution he forfeits any right he ever had to respect from me or anyone else who treasures their constitutional rights. Those rights are, after all, what makes this country great.
"

Bush never stopped people from using their 1st amendment rights. You want to protest bush's speech, go right ahead, but do it OUTSIDE. You have the right to protest, but not in someone else's property while they are holding an event. Do it outside. Then no one gets upset.

But be careful. If you protest while Clinton is speaking, you WILL get arrested, even if you do it outside.

I wish you folks would actually see some of the things that Clinton did. You folks never said one word during Clinton's incredible abuses. But one school ejects students when they protest inside the auditorium during the presidential speech, and the world is ending.

Btw, the school didn't order anyone to applaud. They requested it. I saw the other articles. But the one on the democraticunderground.com MUST be true, right. They would NEVER have a bias on things. Oddly enough, even that article couldn't put too bad a spin on things. The worst they managed to say is that the speech stopped until a standing ovation occurred. Big deal.

Is this some phenomenon of the Internet? If you expect me to BELIEVE something, then prove it! Show me the proof about Bush. Show me the proof about Clinton. The fact that you expect what you type onto a messageboard to be taken as fact, shows me that you believe what others type into a text box.

George Bush is a Yeti! Why isn't anyone talking about that? There, I typed it. Do you now believe it?

It's ridiculous! Look into things, do your research, think critically, and question EVERYTHING! And if you expect me (and God help us if not EVERYONE else) to believe that what you say has validity, back it up! While I'm sure you are a nice person who is completely trustworthy, give me some corroboration for your statement.

My school had CIA director Tenet. If you wish to hear about the long and dubious history my school has with the CIA, email me. If I was graduating this year I would have had my diploma mailed to me. And, my mommy would have supported me 100%.

Thank You for posting this, it is truly unbelievable that this sort of thing is still possible in our country. This really makes me sick!
Hope you don't mind but I passed this on to greenlight as well!

*still in shock*

Well, I cannot support or deny the validity of the event in this article.

But I will tell you this: The security additions added post Sept 11th where I work does include "Speaking out against any policies of the current administration" as a direct violation of security policy. Any person violating this (and other far more sensible precautions) will be reprimanded up to termination, arrest and indictment.

Figure someday I'll be arrested for coming here, but maybe, just maybe they have bigger fish to fry than I....

*sigh*

I think if is quite sad that people are flaming each other in the GUESTBOOK, of all places. This is where you put your thought on what the webmaster put up on HIS site, which he opperates with his own funds. If you really want to get into a flame war, please do it elsewhere.

As African American writer, James Baldwin, wrote in Notes of a Native Son: "I Love America more than any other country in the world, and exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually."

I live by that sentence. It would be nice if everyone did. But this is America, one should be able to choose to live their life however they want as long as it doesn't cause "actual injury" to others (as opposed to emotional injury, which is what happens when people want to end recognized rights--i.e. free speech hurts their feelings, gays offend them, or they don't like action movies therefore nobody should be able to make or watch them).

The U.S. is based on the people, not a king, emperor, god, or president. James Madison believed that it was necessary to have many factions in a large republic to prevent tyranny. It is intrinsic that the U.S. have people who oppose, criticize, and monitor the government and interest groups.

The course description, mentioned in an above comment, for UC Berkeley was not written by a real professor (from my understanding) and it was recently changed. Yes, there are liberals who can be as stupid as conservatives. But the fact that there are some liberals who wish to stifle expression does not make conservatives--or *anybody*--right in restricting forms of expression.

I'll leave you with two quotes from an unknown (not famous) UC Berkeley political science professor (Prof. Sperlich): "Freedom means nothing unless you have the freedom to be different" and "free speech can be unpleasant but we should endure it for the freedom."

My thanks go to you as well Wil....thanks for posting this stuff....
you're not the only one that has these opinions..
we do to...

hell, I'm Canadian, and i agree with you...
cheers wil, and keep it up...

I must say to those who asked for more evidence, you people need to pay more attention to media. I'm not talking internet media but CBS news, CNN, Washington post, local news etc. becuase hey folks this was on my local news in a small town in Illinois for Gods sake. Its not even a liberal news paper. I hear so many people whine about people who question the administration or government, and most of the time those people only have a glimpse at what the real issues are. I notice America doesn't seem to pay to much hard time in expanding there knowledge of events and just go at face value.
As a concerned American I read and watch media from all around the country and the world. There are many things senators, not just Bush, are doing wrong. Senators are "war profiteering" from Bush's new anti-terrotist bill, asking for millions of dollars in their own private projects such as restoring gradens in Florida from becoming a Nudist colony. And no one seems to realize there is no declared war here it cant be declared by the presidentafter more than Ninety days. No one seems to notice that in most news reports the military has complained of Bush's strategy which at this point has stretched most military branch's thin and has left several security gaps. No one seems to care Ashcroft spent thousands of dollars to cover a nude statue or that Bush spends 4.1 million to constantly visit Texas in a time of crisis where are national budget is extremely tight? I mean come on Bush may not be the best president or the worse but pay attention to our country damn it. Thats the responsibility we have as citizens. This is the peoples country we have become so adjusted to others running it we just take things at face value, come on put some effort in protecting both security and liberty of this nation pay some attention read, watch, listen, and get involve.

Ps heres a little quote about free speech:
WITH THE FIRST LINK, A CHAIN IS FORGED, THE FIRST SPEECH CENSURED, THE FIRST THOUGHT FORBIDDEN, THE FIRST FREEDOM DENIED CHAINS US ALL IRREVOCABLY.

If you've got as far as the bottom of this comment list then well done! I've read them all.

I'm not American, I'm British so you may disregard my views. You US lot have something Brits dream of (a written consitution), and for goodness sake use it. We've got our own problems in the UK with Bush's lapdog (Tony Blair) but arresting people for excercising their constitutional rights is illegal.

As for 'Strabolgi's comments on A-rabs, my father has worked in Iran and Iraq for a UK company and he's still alive. I have many Arab friends and they are kind and would go out of their way to help you.

Michael J Martin (composer)

Folks,

Lots of interesting comments here -- but also a lot of mudflinging and charges/countercharges.

Didn't anybody ever hear of the old Usenet dictum: write it down, save it to a file, then go take a pee. If, after you're done, you still think the words truly represent you and your thoughts, then go ahead and post 'em.

It's my take that Wil puts this stuff up for us to read and think about. It's not his responsibility to PROVE anything to you -- if you use one tenth of the brains Gawd gave a hole in the ground, you'd figure out how to go out and look things up for yourself to your own satisfaction. That's the nature of thought-provoking commentary -- it's stuff that you THINK about and then go out and learn more on your own.

Don't like what you read about Monkey Boy in the White House? Then go find out some more -- that's what libraries and news sites are for. Read as much as you can and take into account that EVERYBODY has a point of view and that what they say is filtered through that POV.

Sometimes we forget that and just make generalizations based on silly-ass stuff like the fact that they come from a certain country or social class or political party or have a certain gender. While those might be predictors of how someone thinks, they aren't iron-clad proofs. To find out how a Muslim thinks, talk to one. Hell, talk to a bunch of 'em. Read the writings of a bunch of 'em.

I can just about guarantee that no two Muslims think alike. Just as no two Republicrats see the issues the same. Not everybody who works in a corporation is a droid waiting to screw over your Aunt Hattie. Not everyone who identifies themselves as Christian is good and pure and not every Muslim is out to kill folks.

Well, enough of this. As far as I can tell, everybody's thoughts are provoked. When's the learning gonna start?

**CHEERS**APPLAUSE**

Thankyou for posting those links, Wil. I always figured Bush must be a reincarnate of Hitler, now I'm sure of it! I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who feels the same way I do.

Shrill political rhetoric is not what I come to this site for.

Although I agree you have the right to say and feel anything you want, Wil, I disagree with you turning your web site into a political discussion board.
Again, it's your site and you certianly have the right to do whatever you want with it. But in MY humble opinion, for those of us to whom your beliefs leave a bad taste in their mouths, it may cause us to follow that student at Ohios graduations lead and turn their backs on you.

this sounds suspiciously like what happened back at kutztown university in january 1995. i was a sophomore and we found out one day that bill clinton would be speaking in our field house. the administration bulletin about the event mentioned something to the effect of "protestors will be dealt with accordingly". i don't remember the exact wording but i remember being outraged. students were told that they were being given priority to see him speak. so my roommmate and i got in line at 5:30am two days before the speech to get tickets. had to skip my first class because we didn't actually receive our tickets until 9:30. so at 6:00 am on the morning of the 10:30 speech, we got in line. at 9:30, when the doors opened, students were held at bay while we watched busload after busload of special interest groups being led in first. when they were all inside and seated, approximately 100 students were let inside. needless to say, students were outraged after standing outside in the freezing cold in january in pennsylvania only to be cast aside in favor of less volatile voters. so if you think for a second that this is soley a republican tactic, you're wrong.

Wil...

I will give you there are some bad things going on. But why would you bring your CHILD to someplace where you are going to PROTEST. The only reason to bring your CHILD to a PLACE like that is because you need to use her as a DEFENSE. How weak is that person. What a LOSER if you ask me.

It would havent have mattered if it was GW or BC as president. They would have recieved the SAME warning.

I dont think you have been anti american, you are just speaking your mind. But, look at ALL THE FACTS before jumping on this guys bandwagon.

Thanks, Wil. It's pretty ironic that you'd be the one to stumble across this stuff, busy as you are! But I'm glad you do, because who else is gonna tell me? The TV news? Funny, everybody seems to cheer for Bush on the TV. Funny how that works.
I've forwarded some of this information to my Mom- she's not very political and holds to a 1950s sort of political closedmindedness, BUT... she went to University of Michigan. Which happens to be the BIG RIVAL of Ohio State. They have a slogan, 'OhHowIHateOhioState'.
That's one way to get people to pay attention ;) 'hey, look what your big rival school did!' That's one way to break through a refusal to see reality. And in being mad at Ohio State, a little door might open so the next time she sees something like 'Bush stormtroopers demand standing ovation at gunpoint, criminal not-applauders arrested and held in dark dungeons somewhere', only for real, she'll not instinctively see 'stormtroopers and dark dungeons' and might actually see what's REALLY happening. Which is not, currently, as bad as shipping people off in boxcars to be gassed- but that sort of thing took time to develop, didn't it? And I do know that my Mom is very well educated on WWII history.
Again, thanks Wil. Keep it up.

...and hang on a second. If Clinton does this too, that means that no matter which mainstream political party you side with, they are doing this stuff.
Isn't that a PROBLEM?

Part of the reason the warning to comply or be arrested strikes concern is historical context. Did colleges make similar statements when Clinton was pres? I don't know. Probably. Maybe. Was it wrong? Yep. Would I have been pissed off about that. You bet. Did I hear about it? No.

But we currently have a political environment that makes such action by the administration of the college an outrage. We have an administration that has joked about how it was too bad this isn't a dictatorship. The have also warned (not a joke) that Americans should watch what they say and that people who disagree with the Whitehouse and raise questions about free speech and due process give ammunition to terrorists. It's a group of people who have been shrouding the everday workings of the government in secrecy and hiding parts of it in secret bunkers in the form of what THEY call a Shadow Government--a Shadow Government that does NOT include legislative or judicial branches.

It's no wonder some of us are getting a bit nervous, if not outraged.

Wow.

There's an awful lot up there to follow! I saw this link the other day on Fark. I think that the President of OSU must be an idiot for making remarks like that. Graduation is for the graduates, regardless of whether we believe in their personal politics or not. Threatening them with arrest, expulsion and the loss of their diploma was probably the best lesson in life that they ever received at that school. Those in power dictate what goes, and freedom of speech belongs only to those we say it does. If the grads decide this needs to change, well see. I wonder if any Alumni organizations have questioned the judgement of making a statement like this as well.

I think it is despicable that some people are pushing hatred in the name of NY. I'm from NY, and I had people there at the WTC when it went down, so don't push your bs on me. What happened that day was terrible and despicable, but the terrorists aren't the only ones responsible. The FBI and CIA seem more interestesd in finding ways to blow their own horn rather than cooperate with each other and actually protect the people of this country. In my opinion this makes them guilty of treason and makes them an accomplice to all the murders that day. If they did their jobs properly then 9-11 may not have happened, or at least on that scale. Besides we wouldn't have to defend against them if we weren't meddling there for as long as we have. If people want help, let them ask for it. We really need to reevaluate our allegiances over there. Israel is just as brutal as the Palestinians. There are no "good guys" there, just a lot of people convinced they are right no matter what.

Funny how the "dirty bomber" popped up right as Congressional hearings concerning the lack of disclosure of important materials and documents by the FBI and CIA and Justice Department are going on isn't it?

Just something to think about.

I am also a Canuck, But I can and do agree with the problem with Bush. I can't believe that America has a leader who is worse in more ways than the Canadian Prime Minister. Don't let the guy trample on freedom of speech America, if that goes, what's next?

It seems you are all instantly jumping to the conclusion that these students were told this as a new policy. If this was a new university policy and affected every speech given there, I would be concerned. But have you considered the other possibilities of why someone told the students this? If I was part of the faculty at the school, I would be terribly embarrassed if my students turned their back on Bush. Now I would not tell them they could not do it or threaten to arrest them. However, people easily get swept away with emotion and anger when a huge event for them will be interrupted. It would be very easy to understand someone exaggerating the threat of what would happen if they were embarrassed.

People often make grandiose statements or threats when they are angry or threatened themselves. You must take this into consideration when considering this story. This could also be a precaution. It would be very easy to hide something underneath a graduate robe and even easier to conceal what you are doing when not facing someone. I think the former is ahelluva more likely than the latter though.

Please think about the situation and the human factor when statements like this are made. Look at the timing, intent, and strength of the statement. Are they making this a new rule at every graduation or is this just for this once? Of course everyone has their rights. Hell, you have the right to bear arms and shout threats at the president too. That doesn't mean you can show the president your new loaded shotgun as you tell him how much you hate him.

Cmon. This should only be an issue IF students were actually arrested or expelled. Bitching about rights being taken away should be saved when and if a pattern develops. There is a huge cry of wolf coming from the leftists in this country and god save us all if a wolf ever does show up since no one would be listening by then.

And to think my Step daughter actually considered attending that school! I am ashamed of my birth state today. Thank you Wil for posting this on your site. This is an outrage.

Process for posting on WWDN:

1. Read liberal post on front page
2. Read first 10 responses or until you come upon one by Wil himself.
3. Read slogan by Wil "You are either with us or against us", etc.
4. Post first line thanking wil for being so "brave" and posting something so "subversive" on his website.
5. Hope wil reads your post and becomes your friend.
6. Read the liberal posts (Read: 95% of posts), agreeing with them all.
7. Find first post with a different viewpoint.
8. Get worked up. Assume this person is an ignorant and brainwashed American. Never hurts to assume they are racist too.
9. Post a reply using one of the following: A viewpoint that has already been said 10000 times, an out of context phrase from John Ashcroft or Bush, a comparision of bush to hitler, or the Benjamin Franklin quote about not sacrificing freedom for safety.
10. Feel really damn good to have so many people agree with you.

Repeat steps 7 through 10 until you realize you have wasted, er spent 4 hours on WWDN. Rock On!

Dale, you said:
"Cmon. This should only be an issue IF students were actually arrested or expelled. Bitching about rights being taken away should be saved when and if a pattern develops."

I disagree. It actually doesn't matter if anyone was arrested or expelled. The purpose of the statement was to put fear into people who would otherwise feel free to express themselves (even if they do make asses of themselves in the process). Quashing dissent really only takes a credible threat. And given the environment of having the President and Secret Service, police, etc. it's not that unreasonable to believe that they did intend to carry out the threat.

And since I referred to the John Ashcroft quote, I ask you under what context that comment was ever acceptable?

I've seen LET'S ROLL!™ and NEVER AGAIN! used out of context too many times to count.

I think the reason we never heard about this kinda thing when Clinton was president was because he had more important controversies to worry about. Talk about having your hand in the cookie jar, no wonder he blimped out for awhile.

I also see that none of the more liberal posts are mentioning that this school has the right to control conduct at a speech conducted on it's campus. If Bush goes down to Main Street and starts giving an impromptu speech, by all means be rude and vulgar. While at a private or state-run school, for which all taxpayers contribute, you better watch your manners. I say if anyone got kicked out, arrested, or expelled, they deserved it. It was not the proper place to protest.

Well some are crying wolf. But as I said I know whats going on and am informed, I know the FBI now has the authority to read my emails listen to my phone calls without a warrant. I know that a Arabic friend of mind was incarcerated by the FBI and held for over 25 days before he was told why. My friend had just become an American citizen. It was later found he was held because he was ticketed two years ago for engaging in protest at my state capitol during a quiet gay rally. Their explanations for his being detained were vague and they were without a warrant but still he was taken to a jail. When word broke in the local media the owner of the news paper denied the story in press. THere was a small protest later but the protesters were gentley hushed out by police. This happened in CHampaign Illinois. Im not complaining for the fair treatment of terrorists im complaining for the fair treatment of American citizens. This isnt crying wolf this the truth this stuff is happening.
America is not as perfect as we like to think. As a gay activist I know full well im denied many rights as an American citizen. Legally in many parts of the US i can be denied credit, housing (which has happened to me), loans (also occured), bank accounts, health care (happened), insurance (happened), i can even be arrested in my own home for living with living with another of the same sex. Hell this goes on among many minority groups. So we arent crying wolf this stuff is happening, granted not like other countries, but still many contitutional rights are trampled on day by day. And now with an excuse of terrorist threats it will get worse. Catch the terorist not the innocent thats why we created so many checks and balances lets not ignore those balances for the sake of paranoia.
Also to put things in perspective yes Wtc was a horiffic terrorist attack on the US and we have had a few more but lets face it we are lucky it is not really bad we just got it all at once, other nations like Ireland have had this thing decades longer and have lost more. 3,000 may have died here but millions more have died in other countries by terrorism. I think many Americans are overreacting and panicing on terrorism a little to much.
I thank Wil Wheaton for being so brave in his effort to open minds and make people just a bit aware of their world.

Dale, your last post was about the only one to make me laugh on this subject. I'm glad someone has the neurons engaged. However, almost everyone else is merely interested in hashing the same old tired inflammatory rhetoric and facts be damned.

Here, I'll take it up a notch. I heard Bush had 5 students jailed, beaten, and tortured! Who needs a source. I HEARD it or READ it. Let's say it was a local source. Yeah, that's the ticket...

The next time I ask "how could someone be so stupid?" someone direct me back to this topic please...

I neglected to mention my friend was detained and asked if he knew any one who hated America, he was also asked and was investigated by the FBi if he had any links to Al-quieda. Their report ended with "unconfirmed". And although free from jail my friend is still under watch.

I'm a UK resident. It's so refreshing to hear something so...well, refreshing from a friend across the pond. All we get here is the constant tirade of imperialist nonsense about defending America's rights, when, as Wil rightly points out, those rights will soon be unidentifiable.

Even here our own beloved Tony Blair, ever determined to make us the 51st state, criticises those of us within his Labour Party who dare to speak out against the war and against George W Bush.

As you probably know, he's a huge national joke here. We have a cartoon satire TV show in which a Bush military aide has to use a glove puppet called Professor Liebstraum in order to explain the basic facts about the Arab-Israeli conflict to the cloth-eared git. Bush will only understand the puppet, which is ironic, as Blair the puppet will only ever listen to Bush.

Good luck, ye Americans who dare to speak out.

Yeah, controversies like the White House being to politicized, using White House equipment for a reelection campaign, and getting umm... oral satisfaction from interns and nasty habits with cigars. Instead we have a politicized White House (why is anyone shocked about politics in DC?), using White House computers to develop campaign material, and well... so Bush got Kennyboy Lay'ed in the White House instead of Monica laid, it's still the same. We're still getting screwed.

"Here, I'll take it up a notch. I heard Bush had 5 students jailed, beaten, and tortured! Who needs a source. I HEARD it or READ it. Let's say it was a local source. Yeah, that's the ticket..."

LOL! Thanks for the laugh. This board is very repetitious in it's arguments and I just find myself typing the same retort to their same old arguments over and over. It's like trying to hold back a sea of mediocre thinking and one-sided perspective with nothing more than a mop. Alwys good for a laugh and a reminder of how self-serving most people are though...

A college administration announces that students may be "subject to arrest" if they "disrupt" a speech -- a very vague description which leaves everyone here without enough facts to make an informed arguement one way or the other. Disrupting by throwing molotov cocktails? Disrupting by blowing air horns in the president's ear? We're not told what the actual intentions were, but Wil manages to assume the worst.

Furthermore, I must say that it's quite interesting that Wil and many (most?) others here managed to blame this on George Bush and John Ashcroft. This was the action of a college administration, not the Bush administration. Your willingness to jump on the blame wagon says much about your critical thinking skills. You probably didn't notice the discrepency, did you?

With all the talk about people getting arrested and held without warranty, I find it rather funny that the Bush administration is also getting hammered for NOT investigating, arresting, and holding some of the suspected terrorists directly and indirectly responsible for 9/11.

Whether he does or he doesn't, he's damned in the eyes of some people. I have a feeling that if Bush did something really great, like cure brain cancer, they would probably say it's a conspiracy against neurologists by putting them out of work.

SpaceWriter:
Right on. Knowledge is power, and there are an awful lot of people basing things without knowledge.

Dale S:
Actually, I wouldn't say that 95% of the posts up here are liberal, go-you-wil-down-with-dumbdumb-Bush posts.

youngartisan:
You make a very valid point. It kinda makes me wonder whether this country will ever grow out of its shell and into what it could be - the home of the free.

Gee... The President of the United States and his lackey's couldn't POSSIBLY have put any pressure on the college administrators to make everything run smoothly.... even if only indirect pressure. Bush is pathetic. Why is he pathetic? Not because he is a Republican, and not because he won the election through shady vote counting. He is pathetic because he constantly contradicts his own statements and policies. He used 9/11 as a means to coerce and sway public opinion in his favor, and detract attention from his recent win of Presidency. He likes to think of himself as a spokesperson for democracy while his actions show otherwise. And, he thinks that picking on Iraq is "just the ticket" and uses the whole terrorist issue as a very flimsy reason to pick a fight with them. If he had a backbone and stuck to his "principles" whether I agreed with them or not, I would at least have respect for him.
And to all of those constantly droning on and on ad nauseum about Clinton bringing shame on the Presidency..... Snore. One name springs to mind: Richard Nixon. Any defense on that one? Thought not. Clinton may have acted inappropriately, but who cares? Whose business was it to get involved? His wife's, that's who. The country and economy were great when he was in office, and the other countries have repeatedly expressed their preference for him. What does cheating have to do with your job? He was not a priest or a monk. Get over it. I suppose ten years after Clinton's presidency ended certain people will still be going on and on about what a "bad" president he was.
Get a new gripe because it is old.

LG, adultery is not a crime, but lying in court is. I have always stated that I had no problem with Clinton having the affair, but when he lied about it, in court while under oath, he broke any respect he had for the Constitution he swore to uphold. Then he lied to me, directly, on television. How in the hell am I suppose to trust anything this guy has to say? And no, not everybody lies about sex. But, I guess if the economy is good, then he can do any damn thing he wants. That is just sad.

He also had the affair in the Oval Office. I don't buy the "that was his personal office" story. Anyone in a corporation in this country caught fooling around in his or her office at work would soon be looking for a new job. I guess you would also not have a problem of him having affairs on the Lincoln Memorial. It's too bad they've closed down the Statue of Liberty. He probably always wanted to try that one out too.

Nixon did things that were illegal, yes. I have no defense because I know that he was wrong. The problem I have is that you HAVE a defense for someone like Clinton. It's not something I would be proud of.

I went to a taping of Saturday Night Live once and they had this big sign that hung above the audience telling me WHEN to APPLAUD!!

Can you believe that? Those facists!

If they don't like when I choose, or not to, applaud, they should go back to whatever country they're from!

I think Ed Asner was hosting that night too.

Buntz

wil: it seems sad to say this...but it takes courage for you post your opinions concerning the president on the blog...'cause you know the blacklist could be one of the coming 'security' measures...and that would leave you a permanently unemployed actor...and after they get you...sooner or later they would be coming for the rest of us! d. burr

Well, how mind bogglinly interesting. I've learned one very important fact from reading these posts.
NYC has not got a clue.
At all.
Printing NEVER AGAIN (look, i can do it too) lends no strength to you arguments whatsoever. for a start.
Secondly, the only reason Bush and Co are calling this a "war", is so they can treat anyone they arrest in connection to it as animals. There has not been a formal declaration of war, and in war...two armies are fighting.
The declaration of terrorists=nazi is histerically wider than arc...simplistic propaganda bullshit. The Nazis were not terrorists, they were a highly organized governament force, who controled a large army and for many years before war broke out, were considered as legit as most other governments. Terrorists use the tactics that they do precisely because they do not have armies to fight with, which is why an army cannot fight a terrorist organization.
Secondly, Bush deserves no more respect than that which is required for any president. He has not earned more. He has continually show that he is less than intelligent.."the best thing about books is looking at the pictures"..his actions in Alaska and concerning the Kyoto agreement are appallingly short sighted, his so called war has destroyed one vile government and killed a few terrorists and a hell of a lot of innocent afghanis and totally failed to catch Bin LAden, and he is resorting to nazi tactics to keep people from protesting against him. He has incredible double-standards, especially about weapons of mass destruction. Respect? He should think himself lucky that the protest was non verbal and non violent.
Since the protest was silent and passive, no arrests for "breach of the peace" could have been legal.
Finally, its interesting to note that NYC finds it upsetting and insulting that some people in the MIddle East want to wipe out America, and his words SEEM to suggest that he thinks that this means everyone in the Middle East. Yet he sees nothing wrong with making war in that area. Hey its all right to want them all dead, right? Because they wat us all dead?
No.
Bollocks.
NYC has also mentioned the idea of living in Iran for a year, and see how readily they want to cut your throat.
Try walking through Central Park at night.
Try walking through the Bible Belt wearing a heavy metal T-shirt.
Try being black in America, or since 9/11, being from the middle east or muslim.

Rock on, Fluffy.

Buntz:
I appreciate your attempt to bring humor into this.
However, there's a big difference between the taping of a comedy show and a President's commencement address at a large university.

For a TV show, you're either paying to sit there, or you are a guest of the producers, in that they are allowing you to sit there and watch a live show.

For a commencement address, you've worked several long years to get a piece of paper. You've paid a great deal of money to sit there. It's not entertainment - it's commencement, a final act in the higher learning game.

"'cause you know the blacklist could be one of the coming 'security' measures...and that would leave you a permanently unemployed actor...and after they get you...sooner or later they would be coming for the rest of us! d. burr"

I'm sorry but paranoia like that is nothing more than laughable. hehee ho ho ho. ::writes down D. burr and sends anonymously to FBI::

"Try walking through Central Park at night."

Done it more than enough times to count. From tip to tip too. NYC is still safe as hell.

"Try walking through the Bible Belt wearing a heavy metal T-shirt."

I've been through florida and texas with goth and punkrock buddies of mine. A couple of laughs but we got that in NYC too. Noone cares. A heavy metal Tshirt...haha cmon this isn't 1985.

"Try being black in America, or since 9/11, being from the middle east or muslim."

I know black, muslim, pakistani, etc people in NYC. They have never had a problem. In fact, todays NY Times had an article on how reace relations in NY actually grew stronger because of this. And as for muslims having a hard time, there has never been more education out there about islam than there is now after 9/11. Mosque open houses, bush quoting the Quaran (?), etc. Don't forget for every hate crime unfortunatley committed was met with a trememndous outpouring of sympathy and helo from teh community it took place in. The day that sympathy wanes, then its time to worry.

Fluffy, first - get a haircut. Being a hippie is out babe.
NEVER AGAIN, is a phrase used by those of Jewish origins to show that the Holocost will NEVER happen again, it does carry alot of f-ing power. I will not allow the hordes to kill my family, if you want go there and let them kill you!
Bush is right to treat terrorists like animals, that is what they are. Unfortunatly Bush is coddling them.
Why does there need to be a formal declaration of war, the terrorists gave a pretty real signal that there is a war, they KILLED 3000 Americans. But that seems Okay with you, outrageous!
Nazis are terrorist, they did what they did to frighten Jews and kill them. What are the terrorists doing? Frightening and killing Jews.
The terrorist message and the Nazis is the same we want to kill you and take over the world. You say that organised governments differ in the definitions of Nazi and terrorists, well every government in the Middle East wants to destroy Israel and drive the Jews into the sea. Those are governments, they fund terrorism, they train them, they protect them. If you can't see that you are a lying A-rabist or a Left wing fool.
Armies can fight terrorists, we did it in Afghanistan, we defeated the "werewolves" in and after WWII (a pro-nazi underground in Germany), and we will do it again.
As for Bush, he wants more oil dependency that is clear, I think more reuseable cleaner fuels should be funded and researched, but that is not the issue here. As for Kyoto, it is a short term issue that does nothing to solve any problems, it would just destroy the US economy, setting it back to pre 1990 levels. That is a terrible solution in a Clinton-Greenspan caused recession.
I say drill in Alaska! It would be good for the economy, isn't that what Clinton would have said?
He sold some oil fields in Gulf of Mexico to Occidental Pretroleum (a company heavily invested in by Gore), for less than the 1980's price when Reagan tried to sell it, but was blocked by a Democratic congress. I wonder how much slickery Willy got in that deal? -But they are'pro-environment' yeah right. If so then why in the 8 years C-G held office did no new techs evolve of get funded. Hmm.
As for Afghanistan, we should have tried to get the Al Queda living there, training to kill US? YOU ARE A NUTBALL. Guess what in war people die, we try to avoid civilian casualties, they try to kill civilians, just like AH and his nazis.
I don't know what you mean about the weapons of mass destruction thing. Yeah, we don't want Saddam to drop nukes on Israel, or shoot them into Europe, bad US. Maybe you didn't hear Bush just signed a treaty with Russia to further eliminate Nukes. Isn't that a good thing?
That is right every islamic nation in the middle east funds terrorism, they want to kill US, so yeah very govenment needs to be changed by ANY means possible. I said, I find it very offensive that they want to kill me, and that is okey-dokey with you. So bullocks to you!
For your information I have walked in Central Park, alone at night. I'm fine! Rudy cleaned up the city nicely. And I applauded his tactics to get it there.
I now live in the "bible belt" and many of my friends wear 'heavy metal tee's" and nothing happens to them. No one even cares. You are ignorant of the American culture, and it shows.
Yeah it is so aweful here for blacks, they have the highest per-capita income and status, of any blacks on the planet. As for after 9/11 remeber Danny Pearl, be was executed and tortured by your friends the terrorists. You liberals always play the 'race card', how pitiful.

NEVER AGAIN! NEVER!

I just realized I have better things to do with my time than argue with some close-minded bigot.

Seeya, NYC. I hope you someday realize a lot of what you've said has no place in the world of today.

Hey Grendel, my cousin owns a whore house in Australia, why don't you go there and visit your mum.

KJG, yeah it especially has no place in the world you want where everyone ives in the forest eating nuts and twigs, smokin' dope and and poles.
If anyone is closeminded it is you, and no one is a bigger bigot than those that claim to support the innocent, but don't want their killers to be brought to justice.

We used to call it communism. Hope you have fun there.

The reason i am so overly critical of my nation is simple. You know if we had the patience as a nation we could catch bin laden without a military force. If Our intelligence agencies would rely more on personnel infiltration instead of technology we might have caught Bin Laden. It would been a painstaking task and dangerous job but we could infiltrated the Alquieda instead of bonbing afghanistan and forcing Bin Laden into permanent hiding. Now whether dead or not a dangerous man will not be caught nor will we know if he is truly dead. If Bush had thought a minute instead of using brute all out military force we could catch this guy. Now he has created a backlash more groups hate us and more groups agree with Al quieda and will join them. Now that we have thrown our bombs we just stabbed ourselves in the back. Al queida has patience and no fear of dying, that is ingredients of a powerful enemy. They killed 3,000 people with no more than a utility knife and a death wish. We have raced to call up to arms and without thinking we've become subject to even more threats than before. Granted infiltration would have been longer and more tedious, but it is more effective countering them, not to mention we would be less subjected to diplomatic prolems with other countries. Many countries counter terrorism this way and it can be effective. Terrorism is not like a country we cant easily cut its head off if we conquer its central government. We need to think of terrorism like a disease, infest the area with anitbodies to destroy it from spreading. Out right military action will only strengthen their disgusting cause. I think Bush's administration and the American rhetoric "Bomb them Now" is going to become our own "dirty bomb".
We may have won the battle but we may lose this war. This administration may become our undoing.

"American rhetoric "Bomb them Now""

Please tell me where you draw this assumption from. No one here said we should bomb them into the stoneage. In fact, all most people want that support the war on terror is for terrorist leaders and cells to be eliminated. That means a hell of a lot more intelligence and strategic operations than it does blind bombing of afghanistan. You are only patronizing the working people of america when you immidiatley assume they want ruthless vengance. Something has to be done, and some of it ain't gonna be pretty. People will always criticize no matter what the government does, so why should they listen to you?

King George and the US of Enron..

Did you ever see how many fat-cat Enron employees he's implanted in his administration?

I can't afford to buy any special favors at the moment, but it's nice to know that if I really need to, I can..

mooooo..

We ain't seen nothin yet.

McCarthy was dealing with a nation of actual "citizens" (not "consumers"), who had personally taken part in winning World War II. People whose individual life experiences had taught them that they could survive the worst and achieve the best, and that they didn't have to take shit from bullies.

Bush, on the other hand, is dealing with an amorphous blob of convenience-addicted couch potatoes who simply switch channels when they don't like what they see. I think, sadly, that we are witnessing the closing chapters of American history. I believe the people who rule this country are in the process of proving to themselves how much crap they can get away with and how little pretense they really need to do it. I fear that through their collosal arrogance they will destroy our country, by provoking either a war in which we're the bad guys or an equally disastrous internal revolution. I really hope I'm wrong.

oh my lord, i am so glad i live in the land of the free... canada.

Yeah, all this talk about free speech and due process is a lot of liberal clap trap, eh? Yeah, from liberals like Arlen Spectre and John McCain.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,262065,00.html

QUOTE:
... How do you keep the country safe and still protect the Constitution?

Padilla's lawyer, Donna Newman, questions the government's commitment to that latter requirement — and there are others who share her doubts, including lawmakers like Senators John McCain and Arlen Specter, who urged Congress to convene congressional hearings.

I'm a Canadian, but unlike a few others that post here (See Lily's frightening comments) I do pay attention to what is happening in the US. Firstly, a few people commented that Bush himself may have had no part in the decision of the Ohio State board to arrest people who refused to support Bush. Bush has always held himself above reproach. During his campaign, he refused to allow either his own character or that of his father to be called into question. This attitude has reasserted itself since 9/11 in this absurd "with us or against us" notion. Secondly, visit this story of the Houston Chronicle http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/nation/1455502. And all this from a Chief Justice!! "War" time creates the type of environment where it is more important than ever to maintain a just and equal legal system. I think most people are lulled into the notion that these measures are only temporary. I certainly hope so, but a quick scan of CNN.com's headlines makes me think otherwise.

Hmm. My guess is that during Bush's speech, the audience was seated, and those students who wished to protest by turning their backs needed to stand to do so.

There is no doubt that arrests are unwarranted in this case. But removal of the protesters from the hall certainly is.

Imagine how pleased the audience would be, and well-received an equivalent protest would be, if the "Wesley SUCKS!" contingent managed to get a signigicant number of members into the premiere of the latest Star Trek film, and upon the first appearance of Wesley, they stood and turned their backs for the duration of the film.

Sometimes we need to exercise restraint in the application of our rights. Not every venue is the most appropriate for all speech. And it's hard to have a rational discussion when an opponent's only interest is to drown other voices out.

hey way to go Wil. Lately I have been completely agreeing with you. Go figure.

I am still confused exactly how that fuck Bush got into office. We need to get his ass outta there and get someone who can speak english. May as well have Scooby Doo be president.

Bush I turn my BACK on you biatch!

1. The "thunderous ovation" comment was made by the OSU representative, not by GWB, the Secret Service, FBI, MIB or whatever other agencies you care to name. If you don't like what he said, as I don't --- then vote for a new OSU president.

2. Bush is President and Gore is not because BUSH WON THE ELECTION. I voted for Gore, but I have enough respect for the United States to not try to change the rules after the fact. This nation elects Presidents on the basis of the Electoral College. If you don't think that is fair, write your congressman. But don't cry for rule changes after you lost the game. The decision went to the Supreme Court because the Constitution is very specific about when electors must cast their votes. The system worked. You may not like it, but that's your problem. This business of Bush's illegitimacy is the response of spoiled crybabies. You know who you are. Try and have small shard of the self-respect and decency that Al Gore has shown and STFU until 2004.

3. To those of you cowards who agree with this "Not in my Name" petition --- and you sent it to FARK, didn't you Wil---? Well, that's your right. And I'm not talking about physical cowardice, although there are plenty of non-famous, non-actors out there right now in the cold defending your right to be self-righteous. These people love their kids and swell new wives and dogs as much as the next celebrity, but they seem willing to forgo that, perhaps foever, to defend this nation and your right to disagree. No, I am instead referring to the moral cowardice of people like YOUNGSRTISAN who accuses the US of wildly bombing everything in sight. He seems to think that this might make those poor misunderstood terrorists ANGRY and then what will we do?

Well, there's a lot to say about this, but I'll try to keep it brief. First, we didn't bomb everything in sight, but we did wash the terrorists out of Afganistan pretty well, for which the majority of their people seem very grateful. I guess you were sleeping late on the morning of Sept. 11, YOUNG, but the fact is they launched that attack, not us. They did it because they thought it would get them what they wanted. They did it because they were counting on people like you and Wil and Noam and the rest. Listen to Bin Laden's own training videos, and they'll tell you that America is a nation of cowards and spoiled crybabies and all we'll do is lob a Clintonian cruise missile or two and then we'll back down. Bad call, Bin.

I know this must hurt the brains of most of you out there, but try to imagine for a moment what living in the world they want to make would be like for YOU.

Now undoubtedly Wil is getting red in the face and is about to say how much he's against those darn terrorists and who am I to put words in his mouth? But by backing drivel like the "Not in our Name" manifesto, you logically end up in the No Military Action camp, and this is what they are depending on. Don't believe me? Study THEIR recruitment tapes. Listen to what THEY say about us.

I know you wacky young idealists are not big on history, or education for that matter, but just once, read something, will you? I recommend you take a look at the period before WW2 when Hitler and the Nazis used the legitimate grievances of the Treaty of Versailles to cow England, France, the US and others into thinking that we were being unfair to the poor, misunderstood, badly-treated Germans.

The moral of this story is that there are bad people out there who want us dead, and they aren't just typing on Blog sites either. They are serious. They mean business. And they know that well-meaning cowards like you will do ANYTHING to avoid a fight. So don't worry about them having an A-bomb, YOUNG and the rest of you, because if they had one they would have used it on Sept 11th. These people are murderers, and fascists, and women-hating religious lunatics and they laugh at the idea of reasoning with them as did Hitler between pious treaty signings. These people must be killed. And it is moral cowardice to say anything else, because you are ignoring their own very clear words and flying in the face of history because you think that appeasing them will make them go away and you won't get hurt. The people on that "Not in my Name" list (no Wil Wheaton? Man, you're FAMOUS!) are not traitors. They are merely idiots and cowards.

A final word about this "assault on our liberties:" The only thing under assault these days is the willingness to listen to your Constitutionally-protected right to bash the country that has given you these freedoms. Your freedom of speech is in no danger, but your freedom to say this drivel without a response is in mortal peril, and thank God for that. Your rights are not being violated, but your opinions ARE being ridiculed by your fellow citizens who have a little more common sense and who seemed to have been paying attention during that September morning of last year. Feeling a little intimidated, are you? Good. Try writing a conservative newspaper at Berkeley and see what happens.

There have been three really exceptional Republican presidents in our history. The first and best of them faced a crisis that makes this one look as dangerous as a Partridge Family reunion concert. Abraham Lincoln was called an idiot, a bumkin, a tyrant, a despot, and a monkey. He suspended the Writ of Habeus Corpus and assumed dictatorial power over the press to curtail defeatism and sedition. His Secretary of War, Stanton --- one of the most unpleasant men ever to hold office --- bragged that by ringing a small silver bell on his desk he could send a person to prison without charges, forever. And so he could. And so he did.

Lincoln had the moral courage to take these actions because Lincoln wanted one thing and one thing only: to preserve the Unites States of America. He believed that this Great Experiment in self rule happened perhaps only once in all human history. He said repeatedly that he perceived that he must bend the Constitution in order to save it, and he did.

And when Lincoln was gone, and nothing but the bitter, snarling, hateful Jacobins were left, do you know what happened to these dictatorial powers? They disappeared. So relax. We've been through much worse than this, and Lincoln knew it. He talked openly about how his trials and errors would hopefully throw light on similar problems to be faced by other Americans generations hence. And here we are. And there he stands, or perhaps sits, in that memorial, while liberal moralist University presidents like Woodrow Wilson gave us the gift of Adolf Hitler and World War 2

And now, a quick shout out to some of my new Homies:

Fluffy, you're an idiot. I don't think you've ever been in the south, for one, because 'heavy metal' lives large down there and people are far more polite, decent and informed than you seem to be. "Heavy Metal T-shirts!" Fluffy, you're killing me here! Have a clichectomy, please! And as far as being 'black in America,' I for some reason rather doubt you are black, or perhaps even American. Who says "bollocks?" over here? I don't presume to say what it must be like to be a dole-sucking European gutless turd, so play fair, huh? Regardless, there are a great many black men and women in the military defending your freedom to be a moron, so I don't see how your point really makes much sense when it's all said and done. I suspect you're just another spoiled middle-class white kid trying to sound like a Champion of Justice.

PS We didn't catch Bin laden in Afganistan? He's been awwwwwwfulllly quiet during the last few months. He was on TV pretty much every week prior to 9/11, but he sat out the whole Israeli invasion without so much as a PEEP. You probably think THAT'S CAUSE HE'S HIDING and he can't anonomously drop a VHS tape in the mail for five months. Maybe. Or maybe he's Jello on the wall in a cave someplace. I sure hope so.

Finally, to all you British and Canadian whiners out there, let me simply close by saying that Britain nearly lost its ass in WW2 with this appeasement mentality, and they were only saved at the last minute by...Winston Churchill. Ho-ho! You thought I was going to say America, didn't you? WC didn't mince words. He knew the kind of people he was up against. Tony Blair seems to get it too, and for that he's labeled a US puppet. Yeah, ED, I'm talking to you. Read a little of your own history and cower in shame, you and the rest of the spineless wonders who have nearly killed the spirit of a once-great nation.

And Deanna and the rest of you charming, decent, well-educated, Canadians... How on earth have you managed over the years to remain so completely, totally irrelevant as a Nation? We love you, we do, honestly. You have been great friends and neighbors. But hearing you lecture us on how to behave as a world power is like listening to Wil give acting advice to Robert De Niro. Bob has done some truly awful work as an actor, some embarrassing, dreadful stuff. (I know we are all waiting for Rocky and Bullwinkle 2.) But, like the US, where he fails he fails greatly, because he has the courage to take great chances and is not afraid to try. It's easy for Canadians to criticize from their position in their quiet, safe, utterly inconsequential corner of the political world. But your entire national identity is completely encapsuled in the ways you claim to be 'not us.' How very sad. The day Canada shows a particle of leadership is the day that the criticism will begin to flow in the other direction. Having said that, rest assured that your well-hidden sniping spot is secure for the forseeable future.

(This only applies to you liberal whiners and not your excellent troops currently at risk defending your freedom. Those people, and their supporters, either Canadian, British, German, or whetever, have my deep respect and gratitude.)

Well, I'd like to go on, but I do have to go to work tomorrow so that my tax dollars can pay for more aircraft carriers, fighter-bombers, and special forces units. They are defending this country IN MY NAME and I am damn proud of them.

Enjoy the free ride. Your freedom is paid for, so blog away, by all means.

So NYC are you saying that Americans are no longer permitted to live and work in other countries - even those of our allies?

And you would be from a family of pimps by your own admission. . .

Proteus...what was the name of that New Radicals CD? Maybe you've been brainwashed too?

Anyway, I find it mildly disgusting that nearly all conservatives can't put up a counter-argument without stooping to name-calling. It's fine to disagree with someone, but just because they say something you don't like doesn't mean you call them an idiot or in KJB's case state their their mother is an Australian prostitute.
Not only is it offensive but it really cheapens your case. If someone calls me an ass and then makes a very legitimate and well-thought statement odds are I won't be listening because by calling me an ass right off the bat they demonstrate an immaturity and a lack of respect for the other side, and why would I want to someone who feels the need to insult me to get a point across?

Also, the freedoms our government threatens are very important. Why fight for freedom in other countries when they're being slowly tightened here? It is pathetic that we can't disagree with the government without being likened to communists (which I believe would strengthen the cry of McCarthyism, by the way) or even beind likened to terrorist-lovers. The problem isn't that we're coddling the terrorists, but that we're upsetting some already unstable relationships with other countries we would be at least at an uneasy truce with.

Aside from that, the security laws which were rushed through congress and directly by-pass a citizen's right to privacy frankly alarms and maybe even frightens me. I don't know who could be watching me now, and the thought that any number of people could be monitoring my slacking off at work, downloading or pornography or illegal pirated mp3's, or reading my spam makes me shudder. (note: this is meant to be with a sense of humor. If you are caught using the previous statement in a counterpoint you will be severely ignored).

So stop being a bunch of hypocritcal insulting sphincters! (once again, irony, not intended to be taken seriously, etc...)

"So an anonymous posting on a discussion board of a radical left web site is now considered journalism? Good grief, man." -ljromanoff

Will, you are such a sucker. I can't believe you fell for this obvious hoax. But it goes to show how eager we are to believe what we want to to be true. I might've taken the bait had this been about Clinton...

Jeez, it's almost like a war in here now. We have different opinions and that give us the right to call each other the words that have been mentioned in here? Come on!!!

re: dale s...and his fbi comment...who's paranoid now? d.burr.

I'll say it again and again:

PEACE OUT.

And NO, hippies never die or give up.

GIVE PEACE A FUCKIN CHANCE!

Wil -

Double check your sources. Another Urban Myth in the making. Please don't give in to every rumor about Bush that hits your box. You can do better than that. The administration and the faculty (most of them liberal) debunk this. Besdies...do you think students would actually put up with this? You'd have Kent State on your hands

You are so right, Wil. What country are we living in if we cannot speak out and feel safe in doing so? That is not the kind of country I remember growing up in, or the kind of administration I remember respecting. I cannot respect an administration that puts fear into the hearts of its citizens.

Proteous you just proved my point from an earlier statement you have no knowledge of what is really going on your seemingly taking things at face value. You obviously didnt read thouroughly to what i said. And I do know study history in fact if I recall about a decade earlier the former Reagan/Bush senior administration allowed the CIA to arm and train the Taliban in the first place only in an effort to outst Aghanistan's occupation by the Russians. After the Russians fled Afghanistan so did the CIA leaving an unstable and questionable group of vigilanties to radically control Afghanistan. The Taliban was left with American weapons. I'm not stating this to support them I'm saying this to point out a FACT we armed our own eventual enemies and left them out to dry. Its common knowledge that these events happen. You dont believe me do some research.
But what i merely stating is not cowardism despite that you oviously dont comprehend what i was talking about. I was stating there was a better stategic option that America has never looked at closely, ifiltration through undercover operatives, less lives are lost and more bad blood can be stopped. Your nieve to believe that Flooding them out of Afhanistan will end the terrorism. There are Alquieda supporters an cells through out the world, many not even under Bin Ladens direction. It was reported by CNN from CIA and other government intelligence that despite the custody of many suspected terrorists, terrorist cells have gone into hiding regrouped in Britain, USA, Pakistan, a whole bunch of unknown Middle eastern countries, philippines etc. In fact pakistan has reported numerous intelligence reports that alquieda head quarters has moved to their Country. And if you watched the news we have constantly been bombing Afhanistan for over 6 months. Hell we just bombed some of our allies not more than a month ago. Im not a bleeding liberal nor a patriotic conservative. Im a citizen whose been studing this extensively before any of this came to head. These facts arent meant as an excuse for them to attack us. They are merely information that perhaps maybe you can absorb than the five minute gush on your 11 o'clock news. As i said before pay some attention as a citizen. Proteous if you wish to further this agrument you can email me through my connection below. I can support all this easily, I have resources that you can look at many of which are from government reports.

Um...what's wrong with asking people to not be rude?

Got a problem with the man's politics? Fine. But, there's a time and a place for everything, and in my opinion, a graduation ceremony isn't the time or place to make your stand. You're just grandstanding and generally being rude.

Also, I'm sure the vocal "warning" was made in reference to the last time there was a high profile political figure in town...when Madeline Albright and others were at OSU for a "town hall meeting" and 40+ wil wheaton types shouted them down. Creating a distrubance so as to disrupt a public event is not "free speech."

It never ceases to amaze me when people are talking politics things get out of control. Agree, Disagree, dosen't matter, that's the beauty
of it. To have a flame war going on, yet again, ooooooookkkkkkkkaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyy. Not as bad as last time, at least.

Goodnes me, NYC really has got his redneck nappies in a twist...
I don't remeber being a hippie, in fact I don't remember being old enough to be a hippy...and I have a crew cut (i've got better things to do with my time than fiddle with my hair).
seems to me that NYC has himself issues...tell me, big guy, are you capable of forming actual coherent debate or is hurling insults such as "hippy", "lying A-Rabist" and "left-Wing fool" your only method of communication.
1) I'm a metal fan, not a hippy. I am an Environmental...I believe that mankind has done far too much damage to this planet already
2)I'm Scottish, not Middle Eastern, and I can see the differance between your average joe soap Arab and a terrorist. Its a pity you cannot. Also I have been totally honest throughout. Where does the "lying" part come from?
3)Its very easy to dismiss me as a nutball instead of actually thinking about what I said.
4) There needs to be a formal declaration of war so that a clear cut set of rules comes into place on who can be detained as a terrorist and who can't. At the moment Bush and his cronies can arrest whoever they want and call them terrorists, and treat them as terrorists. Your mistake is that you assume that anyone arrested on the charge of terrorism IS a terrorist. At the moment if mistakes are made there is no system to protect the innocent accused.
5)9/11 is NOT okay by me. I never said it was. I personally want to serve Bin Ladens entrails up to Lucifer so the Prince of Darkness can butfuck them (God wouldnt wnat that cunt anywhere near Heaven, even for judgemnt). My problem with this "war" is that it is half-cocked and GOING NOWHERE. Al Quaeda don't seem to be affected and Bin Laden is still at large.
6)My point about weapons of mass destruction is this. America has such weapons, but wants to beat down everyone else who has. double standards. oh, and this treaty...so now America can nuke the world 20 times over, instead of 50. i feel so much safer.

Proteus...you at a prat. numtie. etc etc. NIce of you to mention WWII. Is this the war where we Brits slogged away against the NAzis for years until the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour and Hitler declared war on America because he saw that you could be hurt, and THEN you got off your lazy asses and got involved. Don't give me that "if it wasn't for us you Brits would be speaking German" shite, and quit trying to rewrite history.
Oh, and if you want to see how this "dole sucking, European Gutless Turd" fights, come over here and I'll rip your beerswilling tits off.

When then President Bill Clinton came to Norfolk Naval Base in the 1990s, we (sailors and Marines) were advised that "any display" of disrespect would be met with similarly harsh results.

I don't recall any free speech folks coming to our defense the way they are coming to the defense of that schmuck Air Force Colonel in San Francisco who publicly insulted GWB in a letter to the editor.

If you don't want to hear the man speak - skip the ceremony! It's long, it's hot and they'll mispronounce your name and take a lousy picture of you getting an empty diploma cover from some guy you never met! (My class had to suffer through Katie Couric - not an alum, not very interesting)

1. My apologies to Andy, who makes a very strong point. The argument is strong enough to avoid name calling (with a singular exception: Hi Fluffy!) You are absolutely right, and I will try to refrain from this in the future as it weakens the argument. In my defense I claim 3am overload but that's a poor excuse and I apologize for calling anyone an idiot. The coward tag however, I will stand by.

2. YOUNGARTISAN, I believe I may have underestimated you as well. Perhaps it was the surrounding posts. Infiltration is a grand thing, but expect that it will take years and has a pretty thin chance of succeeding. With that said, I was responding to your criticism of military action in Afghanistan. Had we done nothing in the meantime then Al Qaeda would have continued to use Afganistan Airlines to fly their commanders all over the globe, and continued to run that country into the ground. If they had worn uniforms and stayed confined to 'army' bases then we could have dealt with them without any civilian casualties. Which comes back to the whole Geneva Convention /POW status for these bastards. They do not wear uniforms, they intentionally target civilians, they are not under any national command structure and they want to blend in with civilians both here and abroad in order to infiltrate and attack their targets. The nearest status they inhabit is that of "spies," and spies, by giving up their identity as legal combatants, give up the protections granted to them.

The point is that these people had hijacked a nation and hid among the population. My main criticism of your post was that you stated we started bombing everything in sight right after 9/11, when it seems to me we showed restraint after the attacks, formulated a pretty sound plan, implemented that plan and routed the Taliban / Al Qaeda elements from Afganistan. YES FLUFFY, I know they went elsewhere...those of them that are still alive, and I'm not very sure that OBL is among them, but even if he is...They no longer have unfettered use of a nation's resources: no free training camps, no governmental protection, no passports, etc. If Afghanistan was the first battle in this conflict then it's hard to see it as anything other than a rousing success. Midway was such a battle in WW2. It did not mean the end of the conflict. Far more bloody battles lay ahead. But to say that more casualties followed does nothing to diminish the effects of that victory, only that what followed would have been worse without it. And the recent campaign in Afghanistan seems to me to fit that same catagory.

3. FLUFFY, really, I expected better from a Scotsman. First of all, your posts about being black in America are, as I suspected, about as far from your personal experience as Alabama is from Glasgow. Your comments have the same relevence as mine would describing how oppressive it is being a Muslim in Bangalore.

Second, do recall that I credited Britain's stand in WW2 to Winston Churchill, and at no point did I say that "if it weren't for the US you would be speaking German." That is a stupid statement when applied to the UK: it only makes sense when addressed to the French. The British stopped the German invasion of the UK in the Battle of Britain --- alone. But you never had the strength to pull off a D-Day, you must know that. The Liberation of Western Europe was a burden borne primarily by the United States, which would have been far longer and costlier without the Soviets, who more than anyone bore the brunt of wearing down the Nazi war machine that Liberal British and French politicians so spectacularly ignored for so many years. Early military intervention at any time during the Nazi adventures in the demilitarized Ruhr basin, the Austrian Anschluss, the Czech Sudentland --- any of them --- would have driven Hitler from power. Read the OKW archives of the German High Command. But no. People like you made the same sad arguments against military action, and you paid the price for it. And, of course, you made us pay, too.

As far as us "getting off our lazy asses," let me refresh your memory: FDR and lend-lease gave you the weapons to fight that War (especially the War in the Atlantic, which you were loosing badly.) He did this against great domestic opposition. Why the domestic opposition? Well, you enlightened Europeans had been pretty much in a state of perpetual war for your entire history, and frankly, most of us are descended from people who'd had enough of that crap and sailed west.

Now your penchant for misunderstanding arguments seems limitless, so let me say that I agree we should have been in that War earlier. But here again, behold the overwhelming hypocrisy of your position. After relentlessly flaming the US for intervening and bombing the hell out of everything, you have the audacity to criticise us for not bombing the hell out of everything when it was to your advantage. Pick a position.

Finally, I'll respectfully decline your kind offer to come over there and see how you fight. If I had a desire to visit a third-rate, miserable, socialist hell-hole I believe I'd go to Cuba, where the women are better looking and the men generally tend to leave other men's tits alone. Of course, you're welcome to come to California. I would certainly be gentleman enough to let you get over your jetlag, hangover, withdrawl symptoms, etc. and adjust to the sunlight, multi-culturalism and prosperity so that you wouldn't be so disoriented that you'd wear your Heavy Metal T-Shirt, thinking you were a black Muslim in the South again. I am avidly looking forward to hearing your perspective on what life is like as a blind Australian Aborigine dealing with the racism found in western Switzerland.

First, I haven't read every post in this thread, I've read as many as I could before posting, its getting late where I am. So please forgive me if I restate a point someone else has made.

3000 people died and every single one deserves to have their name remembered.

Right, on to what I have to say.

Bush scares me. I'm not american so I can't say I voted against him, but I was not happy the day he was put in to power. I strongly disagree with his enviromental and weapons policies.

That said after the towers something had to be done and sending people in to afghanistan was something I agreed with at the time. I was glad to see the back of the Taliban, even if it did mean interfering with the political set-up of a soverign nation. I too like to think that the people of Afghanistan were happy to see a restrictive and bigoted government removed, the media reports would seem to indicate this was the case (I choose to trust the media in this case).

However as a number of people have pointed out a new tack is now required.

Acording to the artical, and thats what this thread is meant to discuss, one of the methods is to clamp down on discent. It doesn't even matter if this really happened or not. What matters is that a large number of people read this and are willing to believe that their government and respected authorities (such as the university staff etc.) are capable of this. This kind of distrust is, to me, indicative of a government that is not acting in the way the public desires (and thats all the government is, a small bunch of people running the country as the majority wants it).

Whats worse is, since sept 11, a large number of privacy invading laws have been passed in various countries around the world. Now I am willing to accept that in extraordinary times it may be necessary to give up certain liberties. However governments have been all too willing to grab these new powers, without really asking if the public were willing to give them up in the first place.

Now, please don't say that I'd rather sept 11 go unpunished just so I can keep a few petty freedoms. I'm talking about not wanting my goverment (In my case Great Brittain) to monitor everything I do on line, who I call, my financial details etc. Its beginning to look like the post office (mail) will have the right to get access to my confidential data. The post office?

I'm wandering off topic here. The point I'm trying to make, in a round about mannor, is that the culture of distrust that is coming in to being will not help to stop further attacks against any of our nations.

This thread seems to have contained a number of posts indicating some people think all (or 99.9%) of Arabs are against us. this is a short sighted and bigoted view point. Its also worth noting that most of the groups that we relly need to stop such as Al Queda (spelling?) have exactlly the same view point, they are tarnishing us with the same brush as the small percentage of westerners that have hurt them. They acted on this view point and we are now (rightlly) hunting them down. Do we really want to be falling in to the same traps they have.

I'm going to stop here. I've probablly pissed off a fair few people, but we are all entitelled to our opinions, even those of us who disagree with each other.

"Never again", a better statement is "Never".

Ophois

Before I start I realise that this is a voice from a non-American country (Scotland to be exact) and as such I cannot comment exactly on not only what has been before on this post or on the effects of directly what happened on that tragic day on the 11th of September. Though what I have read, if it is true, terrifies me on a level not felt since rise of the Third Reich.

I know that what may or may not have actually happened was probably nothing like it was described but think on this, from the view point of an outsider it seems from what I have seen of Mr George "I want a War" W Bush I could very well believe it. I have seen through these posts varying arguments and discussions on the events of 9-11 and this OSU event. I have always been a bit of a free thinker, gasp, does that mean I'm wrong, is it somehow now wrong to think for ourselves to peacefully demonstrate against policies and people. Not unless the Fourth Reich has risen and we've been all too blind to notice!

We are (as stated in the US constitution - by my understanding of it) all free people. Does this not mean that we should be able to publicly (and privately) protest and discuss the political, military and social issues effecting us directly and un-directly? I think so and to say otherwise is a denial of not one human rights but in my opinion something much deeper.

Now I have never been that great at getting my point across but in essence what I am trying to say is in general America portrays it self as some great self-important giver and protector free-speech and liberty for all. It these laws, this act and what happened at OSU is true, then you need to take a look (as do we in the UK) at our government and ask, "do they speak for us?"

Before I leave you I just want to state one thing for the record. NYC... Who urinated in your gene pool? I have never met someone on-line who is so, so, backward. You jump to conclusions and through peoples arguments back at them like a school-kid in a playground. You do not seem to be able to grasp the simple truth that "all men were created equal" or do you like some here, believe more that, "all men are created equal, it just some are more equal than others."

Oh, buy the way NYC, read Animal Farm if you don't get where that came from. That is of course unless your mind is so closed your free thinking has packed up and went a way on holiday.

Sorry about that, needed to get that off my chest. I hope what I have said made sense and that I have not offended anyone unduly.

Right, here goes...my discertaion on the life and hardships of a blind Australian Aborigine dealing with the racism found in western Switzerland.
Or not. Funny Idea though.
Flippin eck, I really got ya rilled up there, didn't I, Proteus. First of all, I would like to point out that you made this one personal between us...not me.
Secondly, I found the comment about the French very funny. It looks like you understand what its like to be a Scotsman in a socialist hellhole more than I thought. Like me, you have eyes and ears and the ability to read and learn. I KNOW im not black, nor American, but Americas reputation for treating its non-white population poorly has been earned for a long time, and is quite commonly known about.
Also, about WWII. Everyone I have talked to...mostly University Graduates (and Im not talking about naff little pretend Uni's here) agree that Americas main strength in WWII was that you had so many troops and weapons..and why? Because your forced did not get directly involved until you were attacked directly. I freely acknowledge your countries contributions. I do not deny that we could not have won D-Day without you. I just wish you had gotten invilved sooner.

You have just accused me of having a terminal ability to misunderstand. LEt me restate my position yet again.
1) I am not against war...as long as it has a very good reason (which exists, I do not and never have denied that), and a clearly set objective (also true - defeat terrorism), against the RIGHT target. This last one I cannot agree with as regard this war. You see...you can bomb all the training camps and staging posts you want, and true enough the Taliban (who, as I have previously stated, needed destroying) can no longer aid Bin Laden. BUT, the assault into Afghanistan, has failed to capture Bin Laden, or crush Al Quaeda (istead they have scattered and gone to ground, no doubt to plan another atrocity), has gotten a lot of innocents killed in the process (Scratch has kindly forwarded me a document discussing the exact numbers which I admit are fewer than I previously believed), and is now becoming nebulous, disjointed and its targets irrational. It looks a lot like Bush is pointing fingers at MIddle Eastern countries he happens to dislike and saying "your next", sometimes for spurious and hypocritiacal reasons.
2) I am against the loss of personal liberty, such as the controls on how people may act in Bushs presence, freedom of speech or not, and the similar laws now coming into practice which make everyone under suspicion of the possibility that some of them might be a terrorist, laws that give Government bodies unprecedented powers to snoop into our private lives. I am especially worried where this War is concerned. A "war" against terrorism cannot have an easily definable conclusion, and will carry on for a very, very long time. Those liberties may be missing for so long that people will read about them in history books, and know no more than that. And there is no garantee that they will be given back when the whole thing is over.
3) MY stance on the war is not hypocritical. I am annoyed that America stood by and allowed (in some cases encouraged) terrorsim for decades, until terror struck America with such terrible force. Then all of a sudden America is a champion of peace, as if the rest of the world hasnt been trying to deal with it for years already. I wish you had become involved sooner.
I do not like the military assault in Afghanistan because I do not believe it will ultimately defeat terrorism. Every terrorist you kill is a martyr to someone, and they may take up the "cause". There are complex social and political reasons why many countries hate and resent America, but these have been marginalised to a simplistic "good vs evil" stance, instead of us in the West coming to terms with these problems and dealing with them. It is far too easy to demonise the enemy, for it makes it easier to kill them, but it is harder to understand their position. I admit that there are those whos hatred is so great that no reason will prevail, but that hatred grew from something...finding and removing that factor would help prevent other fanatics appearing in the future. This war may kill all the fanatics eventually...but we need to esnure that no more come to take their place, by giving them no reason to.

One last thing. I never drink when I fly, and I dont drink much. I dont take drugs either, and I know what sunlight is. We over here have other types of weather. As Bill Hicks said "only a lizard likes it hot and sunny every day".
Narf.

Is there are Redbuddha in the building?

I hate to say this but the terrorist are winning. They are getting what they wanted. They wanted to terrorize us -- they got it. They wanted to disrupt our way of life -- they got it and are getting more. WHEN ARE WE GONNA WAKE UP!
I am a PROUD AMERICAN who teaches English (and American Culture) in South America. Everyday I listen to people say how they are powerless to fix their corrupt governments and I always tell them, "You live in a democracy. YOU ARE THE GOVERNMENT!"

Have we forgotten this? How can I face my students as a good American role model when my fellow country men and women aren't standing up and defending what I and many feel is one of the most well written documents in history: The US Constitution?

My friends told me that when I returned I would find a very different country and after reading this thread, I'm starting to see exactly what they were talking about.

When I graduated College last Fall, our commencement speaker actually got booed off stage for her speech. She was telling the new graduates not to give up civil rights so easily just because the Georgenator says too.
Sacramento Sucks Ass sometimes.

Hi Wil!

Here's the problem. Let's say that they allowed a protest at the OSU Graduation ceremony. Do you think some of the people seeing the President publicly disrespected might have been upset? Have you ever heard of the concept of "fighting words"? The graduation ceremony was held in a stadium packed with people. What result do you think could be reasonably expected if thousands of people ended up engaged in a brawl in the stadium? Do you suppose that some people might in fact be injured, or might actually DIE from being stampeded or pushed off of the balcony in a melee?

If the protesters wanted to stage a protest, they could have, at another venue (or they could have joined the protesters outside the stadium, for that matter). Instead, they decided to stage their protest in the most disruptive manner possible, where it was likely to cause both damage to property and damage to people. As the old saying goes..."You can't yell 'FIRE!' in a crowded theater" and expect it to be considered free speech, unless the theater is actually ON FIRE. The University stepped in to PREVENT violence and harm to people and property. The protesters should have chosen another place to have their protest.

Fluffy, this debate is doing some good after all. You're making more sense. Still, consider this:

1 On your telling us what it's like to be Black in America:

Think about how annoying this must seem to us. We have heard this again and again from France, England, Sweden, and any number of other lily-white nations with populations who's genetic homogeneity goes back thousands, if not tens of thousands of years. America's racial problems are undeniable. What is also undeniable is the progress we have made, but ignoring that progress is not what torqued me about your comments. I just find it incredibly fatuous for people to talk about racial issues in societies that have no diversity to speak of. Now before you open fire about how integrated Europe has become, let me remind you that once the racial mix in Europe started becoming anything other than monolithically white, presto, race riots in England, Frange, Germany...hey, even the Swedes got their blood pressure high enough to open a window and look around.

I live in what must be the most ethnically diverse city in the world. Los Angeles has at least 72 distinct ethnic communities, and I work with most of them every day without so much as a thought. The people who died in the World Trade Center were white, black, Asian, British, Middle eastern, African and from everywhere else on this planet. These people were sitting around the water cooler getting a donut and working togther like a family. That's the way things are over here. Your information is largely 40-120 years out of date, as we forced ourselves to start to tear racism out of this culture. And the work continues. But we are doing it. And Europeans, I'm afraid, have yet to really begin.

So forgive me for having a little contempt for white Scotsmen telling other white Scotsmen how terribly racist we Americans are.

These gears have a lot of friction, but the machine works and has produced incredible prosperity for all Americans. The poorest US citizens earn more than 93% of the world's population. How many billions wish they could get here and experience some of this horrible racism first-hand?

Colin Powell would have been president had he decided to run; his poll numbers blew GWB away. I wish he had run. I would not only vote for him, I would CAMPAIGN for him. The vast majority of Americans feel the same way. When can we expect to see a black British Prime Minister? A Black German Chancellor? A Latino or Asian French President?

As a matter of fact, I can not recall seeing ANY black European politicians in any capacity whatsoever.

And while you may not like the fact that Europeans were unable to stop the horrible hemmoraging in the Balkans, the fact is that Serbians and Croats and Albanians and Azerbijanis all have restaurants next to each other down at the corner mall over here. Because when these people come to the United States, they are expected to leave that nonsense behind them. Yes, that Northern Ireland nonsense. That Middle East nonsense. That Greek / Cypriot nonsense.

In the days after September 11th we saw Jewish women wearing Muslim headgear outside of mosques to reassure the Islamic Americans that this wasn't about them. Where else in the world does this happen? I see French Palestinians throwing molotov cocktails at French jews, and Europeans have the audacity to call US racist and unsophisticated?

When 12% of Scotland is black, and 35% is Latino, and 5% is Asian, THEN we can talk about how our countries deal with racism.

On Sept 11th the only color people we saw staggering out of that wreckage were GRAY. Don't lecture us on how we treat each other when your backyard is blood-soaked from racial and national conflicts without purpose or end.

2. Loss of rights. The US constitution is, I believe, the only document of its kind in the world that specifically states that powers not granted to it by name are reserved to the people. All this hysteria about GWB at OSU is ridiculous. The University has a right to prevent 10 malcontents from spoiling an address to the student body, whether the speaker is the President of the United States or Mr. Rogers. No one ever said that people could not protest the President during his stay. They did say, rather stupidly, that they will not allow people with a political axe to grind to ruin the commencement ceremony of many thousands of students. I know asking a liberal to behave himself is like giving a cat a bath, but their father issues are their problem and does not give them the right to disrupt the commencement without facing the consequences. They have not been asked not to protest if they want to. They HAVE been asked not to do it in polite company, and this of course sets them off like wild geese. Protest over there, Junior Justice Avenger...I for one would like to hear what the President has to say.

3. You are annoyed that America waited for terror to hit home before we took action. Again, what a no-win situation you always seem to put us in.

If anti-French terrorism were met with a swift, strong FRENCH military response, no one would be more surprised, delighted or supportive than the US. Ditto England, Germany, etc. But, since you chose not to support a viable military, there is no one left to do it but us. So, we're bomb-crazy cowboys if we, on the other side of the globe, can no longer wait for Europeans to stop the bloodshed in Kosovo and we take action, or else we're self-centered arrogant elitists who turn a blind eye to the world's problems. We're condemned if we act, we're condemed if we don't act, and flip the historical response with the hypothetical one and we are merely condemned by different groups at different times.

The sad fact is that the entire world is so completely fixated with the United States that you hold us responsible for everything. If a bus is 4 minutes late in Karachi, it's the American's fault. Fujimora loots Peru for two terms? God Damn Americans let him get away with it. Currpot Saudi regime got you down? Stinking Filthy American's support them.

Actually, yes we do. Would you like us to come over and give you a new government? The nerve of you arrogant Americans! Okay then, keep the one you have. You heartless American bastards. Churchill said that people get the governments they deserve. Right again.

But wait, we're not done! McDonald's in France? America's World domination hegemony continues. (As a specific example, I have just checked the Washington Yellow Pages, and the Department of Global Hegemony either doesn't exist or has an unlisted number. So I take that to mean that the US government does not pay huge subsidies to McDonalds to offset their horrible financial losses. Therefor, I can only assume that McDonalds is in France because ENOUGH FRENCH PEOPLE EAT THERE to keep them in business. It's appalling food; everybody knows that. But I've had the occasional Big Mac Attack and the fact that Frenchmen and Englishmen and Chinese might want one too is the reason those businesses are there. But no, it's all part of a crass American plan to dominate the world. )

(By the way, can you possibly tell me why the rest of the planet seems to be so consistently enamored with the very WORST stuff we produce? Just curious. )

So, if I understand you correctly, we are guilty for not getting militarily involved when terrorism strikes someone elses country, and we are ALSO guilty when we DO respond when terrorism strikes at home. And this from our Allies? How many dead Scotsmen are buried on the banks of the Potomac, fallen in defense of America? ZERO. Walk through Normandy, or the Argonne, or Anzio and count the crosses.

Hey thanks for the help and support, Allies. When the war ended, the US had undisputed Naval, Land and Sea power, a monopoly on nuclear weapons, and a Bomber fleet that could deliver them anywhere in the rest of a world ruined by European and Japanese Imperialism. We could have planted our flag in every capitol of the world, so what did the evil, stupid, arrogant Americans do?

We kept Gaum as a territory for trans-pacific refueling flights, we scrapped out tanks and ships and planes, and we came home. Oh, and uh pumped billions of dollars into rebuilding the nations that had just tried their mightiest to wipe us out. Where in history has such a thing happened.

You know Fluffy, I don't much mind it when Muslim Fanatics say bad things about the US. I know what kind of life they lead, But to hear it from Brits and Canadians and the French, THE FRENCH, who surrendered in two weeks and who we allowed to march first into a Paris liberated by American blood...well, you should be ashamed of yourselves.

We are often accused of not caring or knowing much about what goes on in the rest of the world. Absolutely true. We see here, every day, people from around the world working together to produce more absorbent paper towels or ultrasonic toothbrushes or whetever. Everyone here came from somewhere else. Yes, even the Noble Indian. The most ambitious, bold determined people from around the world come here as they have for 2 centuries to get a new start and to leave all these useless, endless blood feuds behind them. So maybe now you get a glimpse of why we don't like being called racists by all-white societies, bullies by self-inflicted eunuchs or idiot savages by people whose greatest cultural achievement is getting a pig to dig up fungus with its nose.

Oh, one last thing. Bush is pointing at certain countries and saying "You're next" because they ARE next. Americans have learned from European history what the Europeans steadfastly refuse to see, and that is that we will not just sit around and wait for Sept 11 to happen again. We may not be able to prevent it from happening again, but we will damn sure be certain that it will carry unpleasant circumstances for those involved. Faced with enemies who throw grenades into Bat Mitzvahs, I'll take a West Texas Sheriff over a pasty coffee-table truffle-eating wanker any day.

So, what exactly do trolls eat? And, why do you keep feeding them? They're already the size of Jabba the Hutt, how much bigger do you want them to get?

The "student" Will mentions is actually a female, and she was not a student at the time. She was attending the ceremony as a "friend." This is an important story, but a lot of inaccurate buzz has been swarming around it.

I didn't vote for George.

I did read Wil's comments, the Democratic Underground comments & most of the comments here.

I don't think George is anything like Adolf Hitler in any regard.

I do think that a few people are not fond of the current administration, believe that "the man" is out to get them, and are choosing to embellish a series of events to fit their particular world view.

I do think that a lot of probably well-meaning people are willing to jump on a bandwagon with very limited amounts of information. To me, that is the true danger. It is exactly what allows the Hitlers, McCarthys, and Saties* to flourish.

*Several of you may be familiar with the TNG episode "The Drumhead". It might be worth another viewing at this point in time.

I am the person being discussed regarding Ohio state's commencement.

For starters, I am a man....the stories I have read referring to me as a "she" are incorrect in that point only.

First of all, to those wondering....the announcement of arrest and expulsion was not made in the stadium.....it was made, just not in front of 55,000 people. It was made in front of the graduating students, twice.

Second, we were NOT yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater....we weren't yelling at all! To associate us with a dangerous act is insulting! To claim that we should be denied our right to silent protest because we "might" start a brawl? How about keeping out all the pro-Bushies who would have punched us? We had made our intentions perfectly clear...silent protest, period. Funny how those who disagree with us alweays seem to think of violent acts ensuing.

Third, I am not embellishing ANYTHING to fit my world view. I was there, it happened to me, and any deviation from the facts are your own embellishing to keep your head in the sand as to what rights are being stripped away.

John K....it happened. You have to learn to deal with that. It's not an urban myth. It's reality. I was there. many others were. Just because you weren't there doesn't make it false. Have you ever been to New Zealand? If not, then how do you know it exists?

Finally, NYC....someday your penis will be normal size. Then it will be all right and you can live a normal life and won't have to belittle everybody else. We're all praying for you!

AngryWhiteDemocrat, thanks for confirming that this really happened as you say. And that you really are a reliable source. I believe it now completely since no one has ever lied on the internet before ;) Sheesh...

Hi AngryWhiteDemocrat,
I'm confused at your interest in my genitals, (as you say you're a male) but we will let that go. As a Democrat, I thought you must be anti-religion, but I will accept prayers from anyone, and appreciate them. Thank you.
If you are who you claim to be, which I don't for one moment believe, then you must be glad you weren't beaten. At least I assume you weren't beaten? As you must know the purpose of the event is to honor the graduates, not perpetuate your little agenda. If you wanted to protest, go outside and hold signs and whatever you protesters do. You could have even made a stronger statement by, not attending. That loss would have upset the entire free world.
No one is going to ever let anyone crash and destroy a pleasant event by a handfull of leftists.
So you hate Bush, get over it. He is President and he will be for a long time. He isn't going to pull any Clintons' to get thrown out of office or just impeached (like Billy boy).
Yopu can protest, but you and your ilk are just too damn stupid to realize where you should do it. DUH! Where another person's rights start yours ends. You, in the insipid 'protest', would have violoted the rights of those ligitimately in that hall to get honored with their diplomas.
Buck up, be a gentleman, and honor the graduates. Be a bigger man than Bush, by honoring them, the graduates. Got it, probably not. But I was giving it the old college try.

By the way, KJB and Lerch, let us not forget the term redneck was first given to the British (by the Zulus) killing all the Zulus in South Africa, because of the sunburns they got in the hot sun.
As far as I know my neck is not sunburned, I have a rather nice tan. But again thanks for asking. Oh yeah, the phrase all men are created equal is from the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution. It further goes on to say that people should have the right to LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. With your potential policies, I would die like those 3000 other Americans. Sorry, but I'm not going to let that right be violated by Scottish, French, A-rabs, or anyone else, at least without a fight. Also you don't need to be arab to be an A-rabist. Alot of people in the US State Dept. are arabists. That is one of the reasons why the US didn't take out Saddam in the Gulf War.
My family's orginally from Scotland too, so I guess that you got a little pee in your pool too. CHEERS!
Proteus, I think you make some excellent comments, but Colin Powell is far to liberal for me. I would prefer, Alan Keyes. He is a bright honest man firmly set into the concept that the constitution should form and mold government, not the other way around.
He would let the liberals get away with creating unconstitutional laws to get their agenda passed. For example abortion and motor-voter laws. They are totally unconstitutional, but for different reasons.

NEVER AGAIN!

I agree RingLeader, AngryWhiteDemocrat is not that person and should not be believed.

After all I'm not really Wil!

NYC

NEVER AGAIN!

Dear AngryWhiteDemocrat:

You state:

"To associate us with a dangerous act is insulting! To claim that we should be denied our right to silent protest because we "might" start a brawl?"

Please see the link to Buzzflash about an event where carrying signs caused an outbreak of violence.

http://www.buzzflash.com/analysis/2002/06/17_Dictatorship.html

"St. Petersburg Times; St. Petersburg, Fla.; Jun 6, 2001; CHRISTOPHER GOFFARD;

Abstract:

The crowd at Legends Field jostled them, hurled invective, grabbed their signs from their hands and even threw punches, the protesters say. Security officers saw the disturbance and gave the protesters a choice: Give up the signs or leave."

The University's policy was meant to PREVENT violence, as the above post shows can happen when hecklers mingle with normal people.

You can't have it both ways. True, the actions by the students were supposed to be nonviolent. However, (and it's a BIG HOWEVER) if you tweak a bull's nose, and wave a red cape in front of its face, odds are good that it will charge, and YOU are responsible for it. The actions planned by the TurnYourBackOnBush crowd was planned to be peaceful, but it WAS intended (or they should have known) to cause an immediate breach of the peace, and therefore give Bush more bad press. Your actions (and your comments made before the police escorted you out) show that your purpose was to be disruptive. Tell me...When you went into the stadium, you WERE planning on being disrespectful to Bush, weren't you? You knew about the protest beforehand, didn't you? You WERE trying to stir up a ruckus, weren't you?

If you go into a bar looking for trouble, and start insulting a man's girlfriend, the expected outcome is that there will be a fight. True, all you did was utter some inflammatory words, and then publicly be disrespectful of the President of the United States, but you got off LIGHT. You're lucky some of the other attendees didn't throw you the beating you so richly deserved. I guess that means that Conservatives can control themselves better than you can.

Wil,
If you read this can you shut this comment board down. It is really becoming a breeding bed of flames. Nothing is getting solved with blind stupidity and lack of information.

NYC:

I have a theory about why AngryWhiteDemocrat wasn't beaten. If you read his post on DU, you'll see that he took an infant with him, and had the infant in his arms when he was escorted out. Did you ever see the Steven King movie "The Dead Zone" with Christopher Walken and Martin Sheen? When Walken's character started shooting at Sheen's character, Sheen's character held up a baby and hid behind it while running for cover. I suspect the same forces were at work with AWD. ;) Seriously, what kind of person takes an infant with them when they KNOW they're going out to try to get into trouble? He's lucky the kid's not in foster care now, and he's not in jail on child-endangerment charges.

I'd like to point out I never called anyone a redneck.

Bigot, yes. Redneck, no.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled bickering.

NYC, carry on being a little good oblivious worker droid surpressing your own thoughts out of irrational fear and lash out at others who don't supress their own thoughts in a similiar way. It's amazing, you're a complete tool for the people you're defending and you'll never realize it. Where do you get all your information to argue? Do you copy it from your role models on CNN and their right-wing shows? Oh that's right, those bloody liberals control the media.

200 years from now people are going to look back at you and other's like you as examples of what it is to be socialized and ultimately controlled by a state.

Yes, come back with some silly arguement and continue attacking people. It's the only logic you know how to operate on. You're a tool to fear, irrationality and your American socailzation.

God Bless

NEVER AGAIN

borg389 ...
But be careful. If you protest while Clinton is speaking, you WILL get arrested, even if you do it outside.
-----------
You don't know what the hell your talking about borg389, read this.
-------------------------------------------------
President Clinton Welcomes, Encourages Protests at Ohio State

http://clinton6.nara.gov/1996/10/1996-10-29-president-remarks-to-the-people-of-columbus-oh.html

MEMBERS OF AUDIENCE: Dole-Kemp. Dole-Kemp.

AUDIENCE: Booo!

THE PRESIDENT: Wait, wait. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Just listen to them. Wait a minute. Why are they screaming like that? We heard you. Now, how about the First Amendment. We heard your message, now you listen to ours. (Applause.) This is a university. This is a university and we have respected their free speech. They won't respect ours because they hate the truth. We're better off, and we had to run over them to do it. (Applause.)

Firstly, NYC the handle is LURCH... If your going to try and insult me get my name right. Now I know this post is getting TOO long and TOO heated but if you will indulge an obviously person from an inferior country too speak... Ahem...

Proteus, if I may respond (even though I know that Fluffy will). "Lily-white nations", "no diversity", the UK, and please I may be a proud Scotsman but even I admit that I come from the United Kingdom (on occasion, and this is such as occasion) and it is a very diverse population, I admit no were NEAR the diversity of America and I adit that it is good to see that racial coexistence (etc etc) can exist and work, I believe some areas of the UK could do well to learn some of the lessons the US have learned. But the comment that got me was lily-white, now I am presuming you are referring to our mainly white skin and not insulting the colour of our backbone?

I digress, you continue, "produced incredible prosperity for all Americans. The poorest US citizens earn more than 93% of the world's population." Now, those on this board who know me (about 2 I guess) now I hate western culture and its greed and I believe, nay, know now from your WONDERFUL statistic that America is again consuming and absorbing resources which really those poor starving people in developing countries really should have, countries like, those of central Africa, Afghanistan, Iraq... Oh, sorry, I forgot everyone who does not stand in lien is obviously evil aren't they... Sorry about getting carried away that is a touchy subject for me, my apologies.

FYI - "ANY black European politicians in any capacity whatsoever." The latest cabinet reshuffle in the UK has appointed a black cabinet minister. "Jewish women wearing Muslim headgear outside of mosques to reassure the Islamic Americans that this wasn't about them. Where else in the world does this happen?" Britain, I know for a fact, Christian women walked with Islamic to the shops, churches surrounded mosques to prevent any racial tension boiling over. We have a very large population of Muslim and Indian descended people in this country and that is our racism, this is our boiling hot pot. As regards you talk about when we can or cannot talk about racism, let me tell you racism is not just based on colour of skin (as I am sure you know) but we have our own tensions, Ireland, Scotland-England, Asian/Indian-BNP (British National Party - i.e. Bigots and racists). We know racism, we just don't have it exactly like you.

"Churchill said that people get the governments they deserve. Right again." Yeah, you guys have a psychopath. As regards you r comments on Scottish solider and American military power I will not respond for I have been told to kept my anger in check I do not believe that this is the time or place to be opening old wounds like the thousands of Scottish soldiers who have died in the defence of ours and other people countries. No, lets take one, the Gulf War. American forces destroy a British tank with Scottish soldiers in it, killing them. My Father had to council one of the familles, allies! Get your facts rights... People from both our nations have died alongside each other in every war and yet the wars keep on happening. War is death, that the truth!!!!

"I'll take a West Texas Sheriff over a pasty coffee-table truffle-eating wanker any day." Me, I'll take Peace.

Next, NYC again, I know I shouldn't but he such an easy target. "I will accept prayers from anyone, and appreciate them", except this prayer from a true believer. I pray that you will open your eyes and see the word in the bible. Peace reigns where Christ stands.

You now NYC, there are times when I despair at humanity no matter where they are from. My heart broke in pain and agony on September 11th. I was left broken when I saw the AIDS children in Africa whose only sin was being born. My heart quivers overtime someone accuses another of being wrong because they think different, because they are not like them even it is just because we may not like the same man who happens to be in charge of a nation. Grow Up, get a life, learn from the world mistakes, war solves little. Be a real rebel, extend a hand in peace and love. There are more powerful things in this world that American might, man can bring a nation to its knees, even a world. Think, pray then act.

I'm off, again no offence is really intended any hurt I apologise for. I make mistakes as do all and I am sorry for them all.

NEVER is always better than NEVER AGAIN.

Angry White Democrat (are there any other kind?)

I've also heard from two others that were there. And their recollection was different than yours. One democrat, one what I would call a conservative Democrat. Yes there was a ruckus. But NO freedoms were taken away. The way Wil described it was not how they described what happened.

I can understand you being angry because your worldview is not embraced by all. But the representation that Wil provided was all together truthful.

Sorry.

My last post should read "But the representation that Wil provided was NOT altogether truthful."

For all the name calling and back biting, here is a quote that I found on the American Library Association. Just a thought to pass along.

“If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all.”— Noam Chomsky

The ALA is fighting against any kind of censorship. Whether it be books, internet, and I assume our right to agree or disagree with our leaders decisions.

http://www.ala.org

What could have been an interesting thread has turned into a melee. I haven't heard so much name calling and reference to genitalia since I was a teenager witnessing a street fight after school. Makes me wonder what our congressmen and senators REALLY say behind closed doors.

Lurch.

This is the fundamental difference between socialists and capitalists. We will not be satisfied until that other 93% is making a decent living. You will not be satisfied until the few people with reliable electricity are living in mud huts. I'm sure you and your philosophical cohorts have a plan to get the world to zero power consumption, and I'm sure you will continue to discuss it on the internet, jet off to Green conventions, and blather on about it over satellite TV and radio, you mind-boggling hypocrites.

Try to get this into your heads, although frankly, I'm not encouraged given the length of time you have had to learn this simple lesson:

We do not go to Afghanistan or Africa and steal prosperity from starving people. WE MAKE OUR OWN. And they could MAKE THEIR OWN TOO if they didn't have socialist ninnies like you telling them it's someone elses fault.

Look at Hong Kong: zero resources, fabulous standard of living, an amazing place where people work their asses of in order to live well. Then look at Russia, a land so rich in national resources that you could boil the earth and make a terrific soup --- a basket case of poverty and unmet need. They are not poor because rich people are taking things from them, they are poor because their political systems will not allow them to be rich. Those poor countries that you mentioned are run by insane dictators, kleptocracies, and religious fundamentalist loonies.

Now, these poor people you keep wailing about: "Iraq, Afghanistan, and 'Africa,'" are either poor because their people are defective or because their political systems are. Not being a racist myself, and seeing how well people from these regions do when they come to free countries, I conclude that they owe it to their politics, which is not as a simple a thing to fix as, say, blaming everything on America.

Don't you people ever READ? How many socialist failures will it take for you to understand that 5 year plans and state controlled economies DO NOT WORK. How many more people are you going to kill? 30 million starved and executed in the USSR, a like number in China, I could go on...

This idea that me working hard to better my life makes you poorer is the natural result of people who would rather curse the darkness than light a candle. Poverty, disease, and starvation have been the norm for all of human existence. There is nothing romantic or pleasant about poverty or starvation, and I'd much rather pull these people up then keep them poor as an interesting Anti-American statistic. But then again, I'm a conservative, and we have a great deal more compassion for actual people than the liberals who treat them like zoo exhibits.

Regarding your friendly fire incident. That is a horrible tragedy. That we lost more American and Allied lives to friendly fire than to enemy combat is a testament to the effectiveness of Coalition military forces but cold comfort to the Scots, Englishmen, Canadians and many more Americans who have died in this fashion. Nevertheless, the causalties are far less than what they would have been without that overwhelming firepower, but again, cold comfort.

That wasn't my point. No doubt Scots have fought and died disproportionately for the Empire --- sorry, commonwealth. My point was, if you care to re-read it, how many foreign soldiers have been shipped over here to fight and die for no other reason than to keep US free. Again, I stand by zero. Largely because we have always been committed to defending ourselves, which to me is the very first moral obligation a person or state has, and the source of this thread of weak-minded braying about peace. Peace is swell. Peace at all costs is a sure recipe for war. That's from your history, not ours.

The Americans certainly did not win WW1 on the battlefield, but it is undeniable that the constant arrivals of endless streams of American reinforcements DID cause Ludendorff and the Germans to risk it all in the disasterous 1918 offenses that finally brought down Germany. Many Americans - thousands - died in the trenches of a war that posed no threat to us whatsoever.

World War II cost a lot more American lives to rectify yet another European bloodbath. We spent a large sum rebuilding our enemies countries, and a far, far larger sum being the bulwark against 50 years of Soviet agression.

We're not asking for thanks -- we know you too well for that. But we wouldn't mind hearing a little less crybaby bullshit from you Europeans when we have another 3,000 dead Americans to bury, understand?

Scots are legendarily tough fighters. The Scots Greys at Waterloo may have turned that battle and the course of Europe single-handedly. Scottish engineers essentially invented the industrial revolution, and Scottish scientists and doctors may have saved more lives than those taken in all of humanities wars, combined, though innoculation and antibiotic research.

All of these magificent achievements are, sadly, part of the Western culture that you dispise, as is this internet that you are using to sing your self-pity around the world. You used to be such a proud, confident, tough people. Have they all become like you or they busy working while the rest of you blog away the day?

Well hell...let just burn flags in protest at the next bush speech.

who knows who wanted to protest and who did not? was the commencement the proper place to show distain for the president? i know its the first amendment.. but anybody got common sense? does the first amendment give u the right to show total disregard for courtesy?

bus people in.. well u think being the leader of the free world.. people might actually wanna hear him speak? i dunno.. most of his speeches are the same.....

i think people too often follow the pack. seeeeeeee i think a minority believe the bush should be hated and they honestly rub off on the group that does not know what they believe. so now u got the disgusted leading the mindless........

everyone has opinions.. and well i guess i would say overall i am happy with the job bush is doing. i don't think he is a deliberate man... just someone trying to do a really difficult job....

are all of the administrations decisions correct.. prolly not, but i honestly don't believe george w has transformed our country into nazi germany.

the framers of our country insured our freedoms.. but there are common sense to each and every freedom we have. some social responsibility to everything we do...

freedom of speech.. just does not mean shout out... in any venue when we dislike something........ last time i was in mcdonalds..... i don't remember standing on a table.. and screaming "this big mac tastes like shit"---- but freedom of speech insures my right.

stop being a ULTRA liberal.. and remember that there is a balance for everything including our freedoms.

Proteus
I hope you don't mind if I respond to one or two things you have mention in your last post.
1) Your point about racial/cultural diversity is about as valid as my insanely wider than arc point about metal fans in the Bible Belt. Scotland and the rest of Britian actually have a fairly high racial mix. To borrow your point about multicultural shopping, If I walk round the corner onto my closest thourafare, I see 3 Pakistani shops, 4 Indian, 1 Turkish and two Italian. I work in an office that also employs Indians, South Africans, African Americans, Irish and so on. The city I live in, Edinburgh, has a very nice, very large Mosque (im rather fond of it, its bright and cheerful. Cities such as Birminham, London and Leicester (Ive actually been to these places, as I have relatives there) have very high populations of non-white British, whole districts are set up to accomadate ethnich needs, such as the ones in Leicester that have a special speaker system that calls the people to the mosque every morning. We in Britian are not nearly as mono-culture as you may believe.
2) Colin Powel may not be the best man for the job. I've heard (from a student of military history, no less..and others) that Powell was ejected from "Stormin" Norman's command bunker for being a dangerous, unstable element who wanted to kill Iraqis who were unarmed and waving the white flag. I have yet to verify this..so I admit it may be spurious, but it does raise some questions.
3)Your point about the good things that Christian and Muslim, and Jewish people did Post-9/11 (and are still doing, I do not doubt), is conceded. However, similar things happend here in Scotland. Unfortunately, we also heard of instances where Muslims were attacked by gangs throughout America, simply for being Muslim. It happened here too. Not something to be proud of. Really, telling us that we cannot comment on your racial history is highly unfair, since your messy history is at least as bad as that of Europe, and USA has been around for a much shorter period of time. Remember the native Americans? We Europeans are not unique in having vile skeletons in our closet.
4) Im am annoyed that you ONLY got involved when you were attacked yourselves, and when you do get involved you expect everyone else to back you up. We could have done with your help LONG ago, but it was not treated as your problem until you were hurt. If I go walk through Normandy or any of those other places you mentioned, I'll find a hell of a lot of BRitish soldiers buried there as well.
5)Macdonalds. I personally loathe these people, but not for the food...I hate the fact that their gaudy buildings are springing up all over Europe, where we don't need them. Princes Street in Edinburgh has at least two...I hate their overly capatalist attitudes to third world countries, the Environment etc etc etc. So there.
But its a good thing you mentioned them. They are a good symbol for exactly the capitalist arrogance that so many countries are sick of. Third World countries have so many sweat shops making American products that it makes me feel physically ill. And no, I buy none of those products if I know of their swaetshop connections. In a recent copy of NEW SCientist, I saw one of the most poingant pictures I have ever seen. It was in Palistine. A mother and child dressed in rags sat huddled in a gutter below a lit up bilboard. The billboard showed an advert for and American Perfume. The dichotomy of the two things was pretty stark. Like it or not, Western society (yup, us too), but especially America, has adopted bully-boy strongarm tactics in respect to global profits and exploitation. Its one of the many reasons why so many poorer countries don't like us. America especially.

Finally, I have a few questions. Why is Bush going ahead with the National Missile Defence System, when in 14 of the 17 tests so far, it has failed to work, and was dropped by Clinton for precisely that reason, and when a Nato report published recently states that the primary missile system used by Iraq, Iran etc could barely hit Europe, let alone America?
Why are so many people (in America as well as here) bandying about the term "daddies unfinished business) in relation to Bushs wish to attack Iraq?

Sooner or later we will all have to realise that we cannot finish a war on terror by using guns, and look for a way to ensure we never need to be afraid again. And that will not happen will be think of every muslim as an A-rab. Remember, Hitler had a similar attitude on the Jews, and look at hte horrors he visited on them...

proteus,

This is a little of target but it needs said.

Hong kong has the one of the highest accomidation costs in the world.

It also has problems with homlessness and over use of accomidation, due to limited land.

It is hardlly the fabulous living you imply, unless your a rich westerner.

In addition go down to one of hong kongs parks on a holiday and look at the hordes of femal domestic workers (Philipeno I think) who are there. they cover every square yard of the parks. Many are married, but their husbands are not in Hong Kong and there pay is not exactly the best.

As for the number of friendly fire incidents being a testiment to western military capability, I think you need to seriouslly think about that again. Its not a testiment its a testimonial.

(please forgive my poor spelling in this post I was in a rush to post this).

Ophois

Proteus:

Now that I have stopped beating my head against the wall in desperation, I must retort. I am not some green liberal socialist I am Adam Howie (yes, my real name), a person, a human, a male who thinks for himself and has chosen to walk a path of his own. I am not "Borg" I am an individual.

I do not want to see everyone poor, I am a tech-freak who happens to think it would be better if we shared our resources so that everyone has the standard of living we have. I think we should share, do you know this word, look it up. I think science would advance humanity but not by itself but also through THINKING, strange concept for you obviously and that's the last I have to say on that matter on this forum.

I wonder if you actually listen (or read) what I have said or is it just the way I put things. As for your comment on lighting a candle I have lit a candle and I see the creature that is this darkness, humanities greed and inconsiderate nature to their fellow man.

True about the effectiveness of allied force, especially since most lost of life is caused by the American forces. (My apologies, my feelings are racing again).

My apologies for misinterpreting your words on people being shipped over to defend the US. I had no intention to deliberately misinterpret your words.

"The Americans certainly did not win WW1 on the battlefield," true the ALLIED forces won the wars America was apart of them not the whole. I too acknowledge America involvement in the wars. PS you did only get involved in WW1 after the then USSR pulled out 6 months before the end and as for WW2, I will not mention anything else except you only got involved after a tragic attack on Pearl Harbour.

"We have another 3,000 dead Americans to bury, understand?" - Yes fully, now you know we feel with the Northern Ireland situation as a constant reminder of terrorism in our land.

"Western culture that you dispise," oh get a grip, I am not the enemy, now person is. I do not despise western culture I think we have made some major mistakes and that we need to change to let humanity (not just the US or UK or whatever) have a chance of surviving.

" busy working while the rest of you blog away the day?" Actually I work in a social centre helping homeless people have a chance in live, which I might add means I can work about 12 hour days. Or am I being a bleeding-heart-liberal and should I just leave them to fend for themselves I mean it must ALWAYS be there fault, isn't it?

Proteus, I respect you and I have to admit your points are valid and you have a right to them, but please respect my right be believe that there is a better way where all can stand as equals. I do believe in that we may find a common thread and that is all that is important, isn't it? Or do we all live a clones in a factory. I leave you with a few choice quotes.

"This world is comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on." - Winston Churchill, British statesman and writer (1874-1965)

"Our Scientific power has outrun over spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men." - Martin Luther King Jnr.

"To tyrants, indeed, and bad rulers, the progress of knowledge among the mass of mankind is a just an object of terror; it is fatal to them and their designs." - Henry Peter Brougham, Scottish statesman and historian (1778-1868)

Proteus:

Now that I have stopped beating my head against the wall in desperation, I must retort. I am not some green liberal socialist I am Adam Howie (yes, my real name), a person, a human, a male who thinks for himself and has chosen to walk a path of his own. I am not "Borg" I am an individual.

I do not want to see everyone poor, I am a tech-freak who happens to think it would be better if we shared our resources so that everyone has the standard of living we have. I think we should share, do you know this word, look it up. I think science would advance humanity but not by itself but also through THINKING, strange concept for you obviously and that's the last I have to say on that matter on this forum.

I wonder if you actually listen (or read) what I have said or is it just the way I put things. As for your comment on lighting a candle I have lit a candle and I see the creature that is this darkness, humanities greed and inconsiderate nature to their fellow man.

True about the effectiveness of allied force, especially since most lost of life is caused by the American forces. (My apologies, my feelings are racing again).

My apologies for misinterpreting your words on people being shipped over to defend the US. I had no intention to deliberately misinterpret your words.

"The Americans certainly did not win WW1 on the battlefield," true the ALLIED forces won the wars America was apart of them not the whole. I too acknowledge America involvement in the wars. PS you did only get involved in WW1 after the then USSR pulled out 6 months before the end and as for WW2, I will not mention anything else except you only got involved after a tragic attack on Pearl Harbour.

"We have another 3,000 dead Americans to bury, understand?" - Yes fully, now you know we feel with the Northern Ireland situation as a constant reminder of terrorism in our land.

"Western culture that you dispise," oh get a grip, I am not the enemy, now person is. I do not despise western culture I think we have made some major mistakes and that we need to change to let humanity (not just the US or UK or whatever) have a chance of surviving.

" busy working while the rest of you blog away the day?" Actually I work in a social centre helping homeless people have a chance in live, which I might add means I can work about 12 hour days. Or am I being a bleeding-heart-liberal and should I just leave them to fend for themselves I mean it must ALWAYS be there fault, isn't it?

Proteus, I respect you and I have to admit your points are valid and you have a right to them, but please respect my right be believe that there is a better way where all can stand as equals. I do believe in that we may find a common thread and that is all that is important, isn't it? Or do we all live a clones in a factory. I leave you with a few choice quotes.

"This world is comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on." - Winston Churchill, British statesman and writer (1874-1965)

"Our Scientific power has outrun over spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men." - Martin Luther King Jnr.

"To tyrants, indeed, and bad rulers, the progress of knowledge among the mass of mankind is a just an object of terror; it is fatal to them and their designs." - Henry Peter Brougham, Scottish statesman and historian (1778-1868)

Sorry about the double posting my browser acted up and sent it twice. Sorry.

Wil, I'm a proud Bush voter who does not in any way support doing the kind of thing described in the article you linked to. I didn't support that kind of thing when Clinton's people were doing it either, and politics doesn't trump ethics in my book.

Mybe when more of your readers reach my age they'll understand that kind of philosophy.

This comment is not specifically about the Bush debacle, but about your comment regarding the 1st Amendment.

I've been reading your blog for a while now, and it seems to me that you don't seem to appreciate much about this country except for the 1st Amendment, which you use almost exclusively to denounce everything else about this country.

Correct me, please, if I'm wrong, but you DO give the impression of being anti-American. I hate to reopen an old wound, but during the time of the WTC attacks, you expressed serious reservations about WAVING THE AMERICAN FLAG. I'm not getting the impression that you care about this country or support it at all. More than once, you give the impression that you pretty much hate it.

Please note that none of this means I advocate shutting you up by force. But I am calling you on this, and I would like to hear a response.

This comment is not specifically about the Bush debacle, but about your comment regarding the 1st Amendment.

I've been reading your blog for a while now, and it seems to me that you don't seem to appreciate much about this country except for the 1st Amendment, which you use almost exclusively to denounce everything else about this country.

Correct me, please, if I'm wrong, but you DO give the impression of being anti-American. I hate to reopen an old wound, but during the time of the WTC attacks, you expressed serious reservations about WAVING THE AMERICAN FLAG. I'm not getting the impression that you care about this country or support it at all. More than once, you give the impression that you pretty much hate it.

Please note that none of this means I advocate shutting you up by force. But I am calling you on this, and I would like to hear a response.

I'll step out on a limb here and admit that I, too, became dismayed at all the flag-waving after 9/11. Not because I hate this country, but because it seemed so canned to me. I fear it has become something that has lost meaning -- everyone else is waving their flag, shouldn't I be doing it? It seemed like such a herd response! I was sad that so many people didn't bother to do that BEFORE 9/11 (and before you label me a flag-burning hippie, I was a flag waver long before 9/11, have been since I was a small child and my WWII veteran grandfather and Vietnam veteran father instilled in me the respect for my nation and the flag that it represents). I was sad that it took a tragedy of such horrific scope to make people feel like it was necessary to show support for their nation. Of course, I can't speak to Wil's reason, but I just wanted to point out that a patriot could still be upset by the flag waving. I hope that makes sense.

I'll step out on a limb here and admit that I, too, became dismayed at all the flag-waving after 9/11. Not because I hate this country, but because it seemed so canned to me. I fear it has become something that has lost meaning -- everyone else is waving their flag, shouldn't I be doing it? It seemed like such a herd response! I was sad that so many people didn't bother to do that BEFORE 9/11 (and before you label me a flag-burning hippie, I was a flag waver long before 9/11, have been since I was a small child and my WWII veteran grandfather and Vietnam veteran father instilled in me the respect for my nation and the flag that it represents). I was sad that it took a tragedy of such horrific scope to make people feel like it was necessary to show support for their nation. Of course, I can't speak to Wil's reason, but I just wanted to point out that a patriot could still be upset by the flag waving. I hope that makes sense.

Dear Fluffy and Adam:

This debate grows ever more specific, sensible and sane, so I will try to briefly respond to a few of your more well-reasoned points. Sorry to mash you together, but you are both Scots, which, as we know, is located somewhere in Africa of perhaps on that big round island down at the bottom of the world somewhere.

Fluffy,

1. This whole point of local diversity was generated by my response to your comment telling me what Black Muslims experience in America, which you liked to wearing a heavy metal T-shirt in the south. Have we established that you are neither Black nor in the south, T-shirt or no? With this endless European muttering about American arrogance, can you not see what an arrogant statement that is coming from a Scotsman who is in no position to make such an evaluation? If the majority of Black Americans held your views vis a vis the War on Terror, then I'd bite my lip and keep my mouth shut. They don't. Every black American I have talked to --- and street conversations among total strangers was very common on Sept 12th --- expressed the same sense of patriotism and desire to get these bastards. So I don't know where you are getting your information, and I'm not about to deny whatever specific reports you might have read. But with regard to it being representative of America today I took and continue to take exception to it, and consider you as well qualified to make judgements on that subject as I am to discourse about Pakistani grievances on the streets of Aberdeen.

2. Regarding Colin Powell being an unstable element...I'd like to see the attribution for that comment, but even assuming it is true, the man has undeniable virtues and my experience with politicians worldwide is that any tangible virtue puts them in a catagory rarified to garner some interest on my part. For the record, I actively supported John McCain for President. who as a POW of the North Vietnamese was offered early exchange due to his father being an admiral. McCain, as ranking officer among the POWs, said he would be the last man out of there, not the first. This after having every one of his teeth broken off at the root from beatings by his ill-mannered hosts. I consider that character and I'll be back with him in 2004. On Sept 12th McCain said to the perpetrators of the attack to "tell your people that we are coming. And may God have Mercy on their souls, because we certainly wont." Now there's a red-meat, American cowboy, unsophisticated, simplistic, naive and barbaric statement, God Bless him for it. Which leads me to point 4 of your last: Your complaint that we did not get earlier involved before the terrorists struck here. Did we not have George Mitchell finally lead to some kind of breakthrough in Northern Ireland? Much more to the point, prior to 9/11 Americans and American interests had been much more damaged, in terms of lives lost, than the rest of Europe combined --- unless I am unaware of some large-scale pre 9/11 terrorist attacks on Europe that equal the bombing of the marine barracks in Lebanon (240 American's killed) the bombings of the US embassies in 1998 (hundreds of local employees killed), The USS Cole (17), the bombing of the American Barracks in Saudi Arabia (not sure, but scores dead), etc.

There are two points to be made here. First, you express resentment that the US didn't do more to protect you by responding to terrorist threats. That attitude essentially transfers your national safety to that of an overseas ally. Because the fact remains that Al Qaeda had operatives aboard British jetliners ready to crash them into Parliament and Big Ben, but all flights were grounded after the reports from New York came in.

Here's where I'm going with this: What if we had foiled the attacks in the US but those in the UK had succeeded, and it had been Big Ben and Trafalgar square on fire, as they also intended? What would the UK have been able to do alone? I say this not in a "you owe us" way, but merely as a realistic question, given that the UK was targeted that same day.

It seems to me --- correct me if I am wrong --- that you would have liked some help cleaning these people up prior to getting our noses bloody. Me personally, I think that would have been wonderful. Did you ask for military assistance? I don't recall hearing about it. And what does that ultimately say about a country, that is unwilling to pay for an adequate military to deal with such attacks, looks to a powerful ally who IS willing to bear the blood and money burden, and then criticizes them for taking the military action needed in self-defence that you condemn us for not taking for a foreign ally. Remember that I joined this fray in response to your criticism of American military power. Now it seems to me that you are lamenting that we haven't used this power to help our friends earlier. So which is it? And furthermore, if you want help, ask for it. If you can show me where the UK was denied military assistance by the US after direct request, then I WILL have to have some words with my elected representatives.

This is all rendered moot, of course, by the scale of the 9/11 attacks. We ARE going to take whatever action we deem necessary to prevent this in the future. If you want to argue about this over the web, that's fine, but it is the perception of many Americans that this becoming all that Europeans are capable of: endless discussion and gnashing of teeth while the house is on fire. I, for one, am not the kind of man who will hold a man's coat while he molests my child. Even if he had a bad childhood. I will stop that bastard anyway I know how. And I have always admired the Scots as being tough-minded enough to understand this. So imagine my disappointment.

3. You point out that Scotland and the UK have shown great compassion to Muslims during these times. I am heartily glad to hear it. Recall that YOU did not stumble on to one of MY postings telling the world how horrible life is for Pakistanis in Glasgow. You slandered my family, man. What self-respecting person can sit still for that?

McDonald's corporate arrogance. Yes, the mindless Corporate American Arrogance that says that perhaps someone might want an affordable hamburger. Please forward your photographic evidence of US Marines on the streets of the Third World, forcing starving children into McDonalds at gunpoint and stripping them of their meager sheckels. Until such time I will assume that people eat there because they choose to. You may want to take away that choice. Okay. Who's the fascist now? (Would you hate them as much of they were, say, O'Donald's? Donaldson's? Donaldovitch's? I doubt it, Scottie)

Sweatshops and capitalist exploitation: okay, people work for a dollar a day making Nikes. I wouldn't be stupid enoigh to argue that. And a dollar a day is pretty slim pickin's if you're living in Southern California. But what is a dollar a day there? And why are there so many people scrambling for those jobs? And if they take those jobs and give them to $20 dollar an hour Scottish workers, then those people will be making 0 dollars a day.

Yes this is cold-blooded. But the reason I am a conservative is because I came to realize that wishing something was a certain way DID NOT MAKE IT SO, no matter how hard or often I tried.

Nike makes sport shoes. That's what they do. So they can make them in Guatemale for 3 dollars a day or Germany for $30 dollars an hour. Okay, I'm thinking they'll go with Guatemala. Now tell me how this could be different. Could Nike willingly pay $30 an hour to the Guatemalans? I suppose they could. Was Nike incorporated as a third world aid project? No. Nike was incorporated TO SELL SHOES. Okay? That's what Nike does.
A corporation is a financial tool. Like pliers and coffeemakers, it is designed for a specific purpose.
Now sewing shoes is a rotten job. It is a low-skill, low-paying job. But it beats picking through garbage piles, which is what these klpetocratic third world governments have reduced their people to. Now pay attention class, cause I'm only going to say this once and there will be a test afterwards: making shoes in sweatshops was the standard of US industry just before the turn of the century. Britain's too. In fact, as with much of the 19th century, Britain led the way in sweatshops: Behold Charles Dickens.
Today, the poorest societies in the world have living standards far above those of the richest European and American societies in the mid 1800's. You don't have to take my word for this...just do a little reasearch in infant mortality, life expectancy, etc. Do they lag behind the West? Undoubtedly. But look at what capitalism has done to, say, the population of mainland China. I did a documentary on them in 1983 and just finished a 13 parter on China this year. In half a generation they have gone from Mao jackets and poking sticks in the ground to cell phones and world travel. There has simply never been so many people raised from abject poverty in such a short time. Notice I did not claim these were innately superior Americans. These were hard-working people who kicking and screaming tore a few rights and freedoms from one of the worst government in the world, who realized that if they didn't allow their population (I almost wrote "citizens"...maybe some day soon) to keep some of their money then they would get further and further behind.

Poverty is not a result of national borders, genetic types, earthly resources or luck. It is a result of policies and laws that allow people to harness their desire for a better life for themselves and their families.

Yes, the rich are richer. But the poor are richer, too. You may scream and gag, but look at the lives of the poor today compared with fifty or a hundred years ago, and on balance you will see huge increases in life expectancy, reductions in infant mortality and improvement in the quality of life. This is not for a moment to say that there is not appalling poverty and misery out there. But there are many examples of societies that function well in the world. Those that do best for their people have firm property laws and individual freedoms. Theory and wishful economic models are not a substitute for these core conservative values. We can plainly see what works and what does not.

Finally, Fluffy, did you read the article by Margaret Thatcher recently? She fully supports the National Missile Defense plan. Know why? because 1. If it works we Brits get a free umbrella: ditto Russia, Germany, japan, etc. Vote is still out on France. 2. given the consequences of a rougue nuclear missile strike, any chance to shoot down such a thing is better than no chance at all. 4 out of 17 hits is better than 0 out of 17, for starters, and we are, I think, 3 for 3 for the most recent tests. This is not a deployyable technology, but it will be. Spare us please the withdrawing from the ABM nonsense. There was a legal provion for withdrawing, which we have followed. More importantly, that treaty was signed with the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union no longer exists. I no longer consider Britain obligated to the Treaty of Versailles, so that makes us even.

Which leads to your great dismay at the US hypocrisy in wanting to keep weapons of mass destruction from the hands of fundamentalist lunatics and tin-pot psychopathic narcisstic Presidents-for-life. I can sum up my repose simply: We've had nuclear weapons for half a century and used them once, to end a war that would have cost another 1 million US and 7-12 million Japanese lives to end conventionally (and yes, I'd LOVE to get into that if you like) We also have had modern jetliners for forty years and never crashed them intentionally into the Kaaba, either. Judge for yourself relative levels of responsibility and restraint.

Hi Adam. I'd love to get a grip. What part of your earlier "those that know me know I hate western culture" did I misconstrue as you hating western culture?

You seem a decent fellow. Even Fluffys' offer for me to come over there so he could kick my ass brought him up a peg in my eyes.

So let me ask you both something. If you were cruising the web, listening to Americans tell you how horrible your race relations are and condeming you for wanting to weed out the murderers of your countrymen as "stupid, arrogant, Scottish unilaterism," what would you do? How many close friends did you have under the rubble? I had two. Fact is, we are not out there flaming Scotland because Scotland has been a great friend to the United States. So what's your excuse, lads?

Hi Avidreader. You seem like a good man too. Let me assure you that as far as I could see, nothing about the flag waving was canned at all. As a matter of fact, I judge it to be the most spontaneous thing I have ever seen. The second I saw one on someones car on Sept 12th I had to have one. I wanted to world to know that the driver of my car loved and was willing to defend this country.

Now while I certainly can't fault you for not feeling the same, I do have to wonder why it 'troubles you." Hey, I hate the goddam Lakers, but when I see the Laker flags out I just smile at someone who obviously is very proud of something that I just don't get. I don't go critize them for it, and I certainly don't accuse them of trying to make me feel less Lakriotic. I don't react with concern at how this might be stifling the freedom of New Jersey Nets fans to have a say. I just admire their enthusiasm and loyalty. And when I see an American flying a US flag I throw in love and pride and respect and a sense of standing shoulder to shoulder with that man or woman, upon whatever rampart we may be called to.

Of course, that's just me.

Proteus:
I have checked my posts and the part you are taking out of context (a wonderful propaganda tool) was in the context of, if you have been paying any attention, is the parts I think we can all agree on are bad, greed, hate, crimes etc. Read and understand before you comment. My opinion on violence is that it should always be a last resort and if violence is the only way to bring someone up in your estimation then I weep for your decedents.

Though to try and regain some civility to this, thanks for the compliment on being decent fellow, I do try and be one. I'll tell you this though, I think you need to have an honest word with your heart (out with the 9-11 issue) can you really justify the example you give above when taking with Fluffy about Nike. Those people don't have a choice, yes because of the governments but also because our governments have put these countries into inescapable debt which the foreign governments CANNOT right off so have to employ their people at crappy wages. Oh yes and the US national debt, the only reason you guys aren't a third world country is because of this debt with which your government (and mine as well) strangle these countries.

I have to say that I cannot possibly say what I would feel if 9-11 had happened in the UK but my beliefs do spur me on to a different response, yes judgement and punishment for those who organised and committed these crimes (lest we forget Lockerbie). But also we should look at peace (any references to tree-hugging hippy stuff and I'll belt you - metaphoricaly - with that tree) instead of always killing.

Anyway I can see my reasoning cannot make any sense to a man who is bent on detroying and killing anything which stands in there way (if thsi si not the case then I must be getting the wrong end of your posts). See you on the flip side. I look forward to seeing Fluffy's reply to your little essay.

Proteus.
I am a little amazed, to be frank. First you start by exlaiming on how decent the debate had become, and then you continue with intelligent, reasoned arguments.
And then you spoil them. I'll get to your arguments in a mo..because thats the point of debate...but first
1)"I have always admired the Scots as being tough-minded enough to understand this, imagine my disapointment". I may be wrong, but it looks like you are insulting my intelligence..or my resolve...either way I must say that my brain is working very well (hey I have a degree, must be ticking over okay) and my resolve is steel. The offer of kicking your ass for calling me a "gutless, dole-sponging European turd" should have been testiment to that.
2)Slander.1.Saying of something false and damaging, usually intentionally 2an intentionally false and malicious statement that is damaging to reputation.....You accuse me of slandering your family. I state now that, as I do not know your family nor you (apart from this discussion), then I could not and would not attempt to, by intent, slander your family. At no point did I intentionally insult your family personally. If by any of my statements you took offence and took them to mean they were personal malicious attacks, then I apologize, but I did not slander you. What would be the point? I am not that type of person. My point (attempted at any rate) about the Black situation in America is based on the reams and reams of newspaper articles, tv footage and radio coverage which all seem to suggest very strongly that Black people are often badly treated in America. If this is completely wrong and such things never happen then what I wrote was totally inaccurate. Is it?
3) I thought we had gotten beyond the point of hurling insults at one another?

Finally, onto your points.
1) I am trying to find corroborative evidence of that stuff about Powell...as I said, until such evidence is found it is at least suspect.
2)MY resentment about Americas...shall we say belated entry into the Worlds terror problems is more to do with the American expectation that "you can relax now, Europe...Uncle Sam is here to help, its okay, we've stopped funding people like the IRA and we're here to stop all the killing." Fine. I'm really glad you finally turned up...but why take so long? If you really care so much about terror, and world peace, its shouldnt Have taken somehting like 9/11 to get you involved. (im probably still not getting this across very well...apologies).
3)Ever think that we didn't ask for Military assistance because we felt that a non-military solution was the only way we could truly end it? Even now, British Military spokesmen are putting forward the idea (which I have been championaing) that in the end we will need to solve the problems and causes of terrorism...not blow them up. Also, I'm pretty sure that it was Mo Mowlem, Secretary of State for Ireland (at the time) who actually laid the origional framework for the Irish Peace process. Im still not convinced that military force is the way to solve the problem.
4) Soldiers may not be forcing people to eat Macdonalds alledged hamburgers, but think of it like this. Macdonalds opens an outlet opposite a family Burger Bar. The Macdonalds food is cheaper, because the family bar has not got the corporate power behind it. The family's burgers are good, but not uniform, some are better or worse than others. They quickly go out of business, and MAcdonalds has cornered the market, now there is no-where else for people to go if they want a burger. This process is described again and again by Bill Bryson, in his books "The Lost Continent" and "Notes from a Big Country". you see my point. Vicious capitalism in action. I dont want to take away choice, Macdonalds are doing it for me. (Also see NO LOGO, CAPTIVE STATE , DEVILS ADVOCATE and THE GREAT FOOD GAMBLE). Oh, and I dont care what they are called. The idea that I may find their name offensive because of my nationality borders on racial insult...I hope thats not how it was intended.
5) Nice point about MAggie Tatcher. A nearly senile ex-Prime Minister who gets more Right Wing every day, who has been told not to do any more public speeches for her health, who continues to systematicaly destroy the credibility of the Tory party (example:- Ian Duncan Smith puts forward a new, radical idea on how to solve poverty problems in Glasgow. Its hailed as a great step forward. Then Maggie opens her gob and screws everything up). This is a woman who ravaged our industries and uses Scotland as a test bed for her unpopluar ideas. Suffice to say that her opinion carries no water for me.
Also, Britian and Europe will not be getting a free umbrella. If this system is to work, it requires early warning stations in Britian and Europe. Which we are expected to pay for. (at least we were last time I checked. I admit this may have changed). And the whole shebang is not really likely to affect terrorism one jot. Al Quaeda won't be launching missiles at you. Theyll get the nuke in in a suitcase.
6) On Hiroshima and Nagisaki. How many innocent men,women and children (civilians) died in those blasts? Was it not revealed recently that the Japanese Emperor had already issued a statement of surrender, and that the bombs were dropped as a signal to Russia not to get too cocky?

Lastly, heres a list of incidents (that I remenber of the top if my head) of terrorism against Britian.

Lockerbie (270 dead)
Omah (28)
Eniskillen (11)
Canary Warf

After reading the comments from this board (from both sides) I'm now even more convinced that we're screwed no matter what. I for one have set aside a nice lawn chair next to a cooler with some Coronas in it so I'll have a good seat when the world ends. I just hope my eyeballs don't melt before I get to see that annoying dog of one of my neighbors explode. That would almost be worth it.

I dunno about the rest of you, but that tree we came down from 6 million years ago is starting to look pretty good right about now. Well, if you belive there was a tree 6 million years ago.

Damn, can't even get that one straight, can we? Oh well, light 'em if you got 'em.

Okay Lurch. I've reread your posts. I don't see endless pages of how swell western society is. I see a lot of discontent and scorn. You accuse me again of taking your "I hate Western Culture and its greed" direct quote out of context. You did not say "I hate Greed." You made that statement, it got my attention, I called you on it. Now show me where it's out of context with the rest of that post.

Moving on...

Oh dear. America would be a third world country if it weren't for the money owed to us by Angola. Now lads, get out your pencils, and lets write out some numbers. The US GDP is about 7-8 trillion dollars annually. That's $7,000,000,000,000. Find out what the third world debt to the US is. A few hundred million? Ten billion? I really don't know, and I KNOW you don't know because when you subrtract that number, total, from what we produce in one year I will be astonished if it equals 1/2 of 1% of our ANNUAL GDP. To me that makes your statement about us being a third world country without what the 3rd World owes us about 99.5% incorrect. Hey, let's be generous and round it up to 100% Defend that ridiculous statement with some numbers and we can objectively triangulate on how silly that statement really is.

Should we forgive the debt? I think we should. As I say, it's a fairly trivial amount. Will this solve the problem? Show me how it will. We (the West) lent them money for growth and construction. Their corrupt governments squandered the money. Okay. So it's gone. Should we lend them more money? Are you out of your mind? This isn't cause I don't want to spend the money. It's because I don't want to waste the money, again, on buying these Presidents-for-life more Mercedes Benzs and 8 lane wide highways that go for 2.6 miles and dead end in the middle of nowhere. I would be VERY interested in loaning individuals money to open small businesses, but their filthy governments, NOT OURS, would take that and besides, why own anything when even the police are a pack of theives.

What odd sort of self-hatred possesses you to constantly blame your own culture, regardless of overwhelming evidence that these problems in the third world are self-generated and self perpetuating. Do you really have such a low opinion of these poor suffering people that you think they are somehow incapable of doing anything right? They are being crippled not by the fact that people lent them money, but by the fact that their own 'leaders' have stolen that money, are stealing more money, and will continue to steal whatever money we continue to send them. So make a suggestion, Lurch. Like Ross Perot said, I'm all ears.

"Judgement and Punishment" for those that committed the 9/11 crimes. Noble sentiment. How do you plan to accomplish that? Perhaps we could post flyers in Kabul urging them to turn themselves in. This is where that little CLICK in your brain seems go off. Yes, by all means punishment and justice. But no violence! Perhaps a strong public reprimand, or a series of quite firmly worded letters will make them realize the errors of their ways and they will report to the nearest US embassy for hanging. Just out of sheer curiousity, Lurch...how many people will they have to kill --- wait, since Americans aren't worth anything more than a little moral indignation to you --- how many of your family have to be killed before you decide to do something about it?

So I'm a man bent on killing anything that gets in his way? Okay. I see it more as someone bent on killing anyone who sneaks into the house at night and starts murdering my family, but have it your way. I'd rather be known as that person than the one who made a nice cup of tea for the bastard while he slits your kids throats.

Okay Fluffy, your turn.

1. Uncle Sam came late to the war on terror. If we really cared we should have done something earlier. Like what? Invade Northern Ireland when a pipe bomb goes off outside Harrod's? What would you have liked us to do, Fluff. You keep moving the target. Be specific. What would you have liked us to do? And if Al Qaeda flies a jet into Parliament, what would you like us to do then? Push for a UN Resolution?

And tell me again why we should have acted BEFORE 9/11 but now that we're acting afterwards we're bullies. That reasoning seems...well...a little backward. Although I must admit that after hearing you and Lurch I am getting used to it.

You state that in place of military action we should be "solving the problems and causes of terrorism, not blow them up." Splendid. What did you have in mind? Perhaps a series of instructional videos. Fluffy, I fall back on sarcasm because in the face of such an arguement reason simply fails me. This is like watching your house on fire and discussing what types of non-flammable materials we should use for the drapes.

You might want to take a read about the difference between cooperative versus power-based societies. Negotiation and reason and not highly regarded among those people. They are considered a sign of weakness. You do not have to take my word for it. Simply listen to what Osama says from his own mouth. He recruited many people because he said he could attack the West and that we are too weak and cowardly to do anything about it. Okay. So. 9/11. The US moves into Afghanistan. Tens of thousands of Pakistani's cross the border for the Jihad to kill Americans. But those fierce, implacable muhajedin don't come charging with flashing scimitars. Met with professional soldiers they ran like rabbits. Many of the Pakistani and other Taliban supporters are blown to bits. They not only didn't get a chance to kill an American, they didn't even get a chance to SEE an American. Just some contrails and a very loud sound indeed.

So. Does the Arab world rise as one in righteous fury? No. They go home, grumbling that OBL wasn't really Saladin after all. The Pakistani's say that those Mullahs in the Madrasses lied to them about glorious victory in the Army of God. They were met by overwhelmingly superior power, and they shut up.

Here, let me type it for you Fluff, I can see the veins in your head starting to throb: THEY REGROUPED TO FIGHT AGAIN, ONLY NOW THERE ARE MORE OF THEM AND THEY ARE EVEN ANGRIER!

I doubt it. I think Bin Laden is paste in some unmarked grave. Whether he is or not, we know that many of his lieutenants are. What used to look like easy pickings for your average Al Qaeda now looks like a pretty sure death sentence.

Sure there's a lot of them left. Sure they're going to do more damage. Do you honestly think that Bin Laden's master plan was to attack the US so that he and his minions could be routed from the country they stole, then be blown up huddling in caves and shot by their own Afghan flunkies? I rather doubt it. He thought we'd hurl a few cruise missiles, and then, flush with success, he could extend the taliban regime into all of Central Asia and re-ignite a worldwide Muslim Califate with him as the leader, the Great Slayer of Americans.

So again, stop hiding behind generalities and speculations and you tell me SPECIFICALLY what you would have done so we can argue in at least a remotely level playing field. Of course, we'll be dealing with your personal opinions, if not fantasies, but at least that's something that can be responded to.

You say that you don't want to take away choice, that McDonalds is doing it for you. Interesting argument. The only flaw that I can see is that no one took away your choice but you. If people had preferred Mom and Pop burgers then they'd be there on the patio cheering as McDonalds packed up and went home, out of business. You concede the fact that people vote with their feet. You just don't think they should be allowed to, apparently. So let me make sure I understand your argument correctly. McDonalds should be banned because if they are not, people will chose McDonalds and put local hamburger stands out of business. Did I miss something? It seems to me that by following that path to it's logical conclusion, well-made clothes should be banned because they take away from Frau Niedelkoph's haberdashery sales. Solid steel tools can not be allowed...it will be bad for the neighborhood smithy. And certainly no professional theatres, for that will be the certain death of Hector Grabanzo and his all-gypsy musical adaptation of "To Kill A Mockingbird."

That's quite a success strategy you have Fluff. I'm sure it will bring all of the prosperity and happiness we have come to expect from such a North Korean economic model. They don't have McDonalds either, those lucky, lucky bastards.

Hey, speaking of Dear Leader, let's not forget who exports more ballistic missiles than anyone on Earth --- even us! That's why a National MISSILE defense is a rather fine idea. Because, hey...pull the trigger on one of those and all the Customs inspectors in Miami are going to you you a speck of good. I'm sure that when Italians become terrorists we will need a National Suitcase Defense. And besides, a strike with a suitcase bomb is neither here nor there. The missile threat is real, and it is expanding. Now you may ask, intelligent liberal European that you are, 'Why would Dear Leader or Saddam do something like launch a nuclear missile attack on the US?"

I don't know, but I DO know that we must defend against enemey CAPABILITIES rather than wishful hoping about INTENTIONS. Why do they starve their people to death? Why did Hitler order tens of thousands of Berliners to be drowned in the final hours of WWII by flooding the underground stations to slow the Soviets? (Thankfully countermanded by brave German Genrals) Why don't they give a damn about anything than their own personal survival?

I'm guessing here...could it be that they are FUCKING PSYCHOPATHS? Could be. But you think they should have nuclear weapons. Okay, let's talk about the use of nuclear weapons.

I DEFY you to show credible corraborating evidence of a formal Japanese surrender prior to the dropping of the second atomic bomb. Yes, it's a very pleasant thought seeing as how it makes the American's even more murderous. I DARE you to prove it. Hey, and what about all of that Scottish Volunteer regiment of SS guards who refused orders from the Germans to let the last of the Jews go and instead napalmed 200,000 of them in that pit somewhere? It's all over the web. And what about the photos of the Scottish World Cup team sacrificing babies and eating raw human hearts? (It didn't help) Hey, I hear that Churchill secretly gave Rudolh Hess a blowjob in exchange for his help in bombing Dresden and killing a few hundred thousand for fun. I saw that in an article somewhere.

We dropped two atomic bombs to prove a point to the Russians, who we'd just hugged and kissed after the fall of Berlin? I want some evidence of that slander, too.

Do you build a worldview out of this crap? Seriously?

Sorry Fluffy, but I believe you have your history wrong. The Japanese were in the process of surrendering before the second bomb, but not the first. The USA never intended to not drop the second bomb, it was not a statement to Russia or really anyone else, it was as it was, a 1-2 punch, proof that we had more than one lucky punch. The surrender, Japanese version was dated before the second bomb, the translation, after. No more, no less. That, I fear, is only politics, we would never have accepted a surrender in Japanese.... No surrender is ever done in a single day, even had the emperor managed to get the word to us in time, there might have been doubt in others in the world that that was the one and only bomb, thus the presidential order was to drop both from the start. There have been all kinds of theories behind the dates of the surrender, including the idea that the translator deliberately delayed the translation because he/she was "in on it". I doubt it. The dates are common knowledge, but I don't think there is anything there other than normal delays involving a large political power surrendering. A battle is easy to surrender from, one guy waves his flag and everything stops (at least in the movies -- in real life it'll take an hour or more to settle everyone down from the bloodlust). In a war, even if the leader surrenders, it takes time to get the word out to both sides. That is just the way it is, sad, but true.

public forum. content neutral restriction. time, place, and manner restriction.

move along. no 1st Amendment violation here.

not that i like bush, or don't like clinton. but clinton was the speaker at my college graduation. the protesters were herded to a roped off "designated area" about 3 blocks away from clinton and the graduation ceremony.

there was no 1st amendment violation there, there is none here.

Proteus:
There is a certain pointlessness to these debates. We do live in different countries. We do have different world views. I find it difficult to get my point across without reverting to scripture and religious thinking which although central to my world-view I know is laughable to many other people so I try and avoid it an yet at the same time not to avoid it.

As for your statement about my hatred of western culture, I suppose what you say is right I do have PROBLEMS with it, hate was perhaps the wrong word, have a major problem with it and its effects would have been better, perhaps. Next, US = Third World, by official rules Third world countries CANNOT support themselves without import and aid etc etc. The Us cannot support its food and living supplies without major imports from other countries, hence without your immense (and frankly unearned) power you are a third world country with a second rate education system which seems to fail that largest population centres of the poor that fill your inner cities (as they do in ours as well).

As for the debt the following is taken from the Comic relief - Drop the Debt web site:
"All countries owe money to someone. But it is fifty two of the world's poorest countries, most of which are in Africa, who owe the rich world around £213 billion. (US $355 billion). If these debts were to be repaid, it would have a devastating impact on the people who live there. At the moment, they are paying a total of £14 billion each year. Most of this is from countries, where the average person lives on less than a dollar a day. Poor countries debts are owed to 3 different types of institutions:
- About 35% of the debt is owed to international financial institutions such as the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and World Bank. This is known as multilateral debt.
- About 50% of the debt is owed to individual governments, such as the UK, the US and Japan. This is known as bilateral debt.
- The remaining 15% is owed to northern commercial banks. This is known as
private debt."

So a SMALL amount then, boy would I like meals at your house if this is SMALL, can I have a LARGE T-bone please? ;-) It is not self hatred it is a deep longing to see us improve beyond where we are now. You want a suggestion, my first thought is "what would be the use you are so set into your ways it won't change you," but then my better nature (thankfully) kicks in, you want a suggestion on solving such problems how about this one. There is one nation, it is earth, there is one people they are humanity. There is no segregation, no difference we re all one people, one family how bout we stop acting like spoilt brats and help people not because it makes us look better, but rather that it would be the same and is the same as helping our brother or sister. Or would you let them pick up a gun a shot themselves in the head because your government seems to think that access to guns for everyone is a good idea, its the same things as what you are talking about. Every government is on some level corrupt or got things wrong.

As for how many of my family would have to killed before I did something, none. Trying to stop the causes of terrorism is better than wiping them up after they have destroyed something, but if they did kill my family. I would presume (for we can never say) I would react thusly. Sorrow, Hatred, Anger, Revenge, Sorrow, then what I believe would kick in and I would forgive and still love them, yes I would want to see them locked up for the rest of their lives but punishment and vengeance are two sides of a very thin grey line. Oh yeah, keep my family out of this I have great love for my parents and they have had to deal terrible situation, it comes fro being ministers. If you want to know what I believe look into my fathers eyes and ask him about me. That love I see is what I wish we could all see for each other. If that makes me a freak or someone stupid then that's fine by me, I would rather be a freak for the Lord than a normal person.

By the way, have you ever heard of REASONABLE force? Oh, no sorry, your a conservative, Nuke 'em and ask questions later.

As for the Japanese surrender, I have friend who were born at that time in Japan. I know something of their culture and opinions, surrender does not come easy to that race of people. Yes the war would have raged for longer but the development of the A-Bomb and its type have left a legacy which has threatened on many occasion since to wipe humanity of the face of this earth. But hey, then there would be no one to argue with. I mean nuclear war starts and three minutes later were all picking up our harps etc and joining the choir invisible! Great use of a weapon isn't it!

I have made a decision that unless you again directly attack me and my views on this forum I see no point in this debate. It is obvious that you are so stuck in your way to remove the pole from your rear-end would take three years so medical procedures and some ingenious use of red duck-tape.

I believe differently from you and I have no problem defending my beliefs but when it gets to the level you have stooped to in directly going for question relating to my family and beliefs then I must step back and say "hold on, this is not good for either of us." And bow with a thank you for the debate and mental stimulation, it has been greatly appreciated. I wish you well and (unless I have to respond again) I see you soon I guess on other of these forums.

All the blessings possible.

As an Ohio State alumnus, I'm afraid I've got to speak up here and debunk this article and 'AngryWhiteDemocrat' -- because he/she/it is lying.

First of all, a full year's tuition for this coming school year is about $5500 for the Columbus campus. Admittedly, that's for an in-state Ohio resident; however, nonresident tuition is $15,000. How does this add up to $80,000, particularly when something like ninety percent of OSU students have in-state waivers -- and four years ago, when I was a senior and this person was a freshman, OSU yearly tuition in-state was $3300? This should be your first clue that whomever this is is pretty much making things up by the seat of his/her/its pants.

Admittedly, that's the only thing I can prove with actual numbers as being a little off, but I went to infinite numbers of events in my time there and YES, the organizers in charge -- IE, the university personnel -- said that anyone disrupting the event would be asked to leave. They said this every time for EVERY speaker from Newt Gingrich to Dave Thomas to Mick Jagger to Bill Clinton to Jesse Jackson, and this is their right as organizers of a public event. Protesters OUTSIDE the venues were never so much as looked at funny as long as they weren't dangerously blocking traffic; I know this, because I was frequently one of them.

OSU is an enormous school. Enormous. The main campus alone (ie, the oldest buildings around the oval, the original part of the school) is a three mile diagonal, and the population expands accordingly: enrollment is nearing 50,000 full-time students and nearly 7,000 graduated this past spring -- that class number alone is larger than the total enrollment of many private schools. If you consider an average of at least two visitors for those seven thousand graduates, you're up to twenty-one thousand people in the Horseshoe: a football stadium.

And here we come to my last bit of total disbelief: the Jesse Owens Memorial Park in front of the Shoe that AngryWhiteDemocrat insists that the graduates were gathered in to hear the 'do something nasty, we'll expell you and arrest you' speech? It's got two park benches and a statue. It's about eight feet square. And seven thousand people were fit in there how?

Someone is trying to cause trouble and/or get attention, and it's a load of crock. Please don't jump on everything you read just because of paranoia.

Lurch, I was about to suggest the same thing. You state that $355 billion is owed to western nations, US, UK Japan, etc. I again say that by your own number the total debt owed to the US is something like 1% of our GDP. For you to claim that the US is a third world country without the money owed by them is clearly, demonstrably false --- by your own figures. To say that the US, the world's largest food exporter, needs to import food to survive is also clearly, demonstrably FACTUALLY false. You claim we know nothing about reasonable force, we just nuke 'em and ask questions afterwards. I don't recall any nuke-em response to 911...it seems that would have caught my attention. So again, your basis for argument and world view are based on demonstrably, verifiably, PATENTLY false information. As with our 'unearned' wealth and power... Where did it come from Lurch? Can you provide a receipt? No, I thought not. The transparency of your inferiority comlex is the only thing about you and Fluffy that makes factual sense.

I almost asked "Where do you GET this stuff?" but again, what's the point? You don't get it from anywhere. You just make it up because it feels right to you. That's actually a common way of looking at life. For two year olds.

So clearly, your worldview is composed of a mishmash of wishful thinking, rumor, and vague dismay. You may as well blame evil fairies as the US for the things you mention, because frankly, the evidence for your opinions is about equally strong. I agree completely about discontinuing the debate. As is often said, there's no use getting a pig to dance: it merely wastes your time and annoys the pig. You certainly are annoyed and I clearly have wasted enough time.

Best of luck to you and Fluffy. If at any time reality, respect for the facts and a little less self-loathing enters your consciousness, then so much the better. I have wasted enough time on this 3rd-rate ex-celebrity site and will not be back to read whatever hateful, fact-free thing Fluffy has to say or hear any more of your upside-down perspectives. Consider them hanging in the air.

Oh, and uh, as for the pole remark, followed by 'blessings' -- you really are quite the hypocrite, aren't you?

Uh, this sounds like bullcrap. If it truly did happen, a LOT more would have happened. I wouldn't even believe this about a democrat.

Wil, I don't understand your hatred of President Bush, but I do recognize your need to speak out. I disagree with the actions taken at OSU, and believe people do have the right to speak out and protest actions with which they disagree. However, I can recall reading of similar injustices under the Clinton administration. Where was the outcry over those? He kept a tight reign on crowds. At any rate, while I don't necessarily agree with every policy from the Bush Administration, I happily agree with most of it and support our president 100%. You may choose not to support his policies, but he is still our president, whether or not you voted for him. I disliked Clinton, but he was still my president much to my chagrin.

What I really don't understand are those that continue to support former president Clinton, who is a proven liar, deceiver, adulterer, and possibly a thief or even a murderer. Despite all this, people are still apologists for him and his shameful behavior. Why don't you write some political protests against him? Thank goodness a few sane people such as Rosie O'Donnell are finally beginning to see the light and are thoroughly disgusted with him.

In short, how about some consistency here?

Oh, diddums....Proty woty no want to talk. Proty woty want to smash...

Fair enough. If Proteus wants to run and hide instead of debating, thats his business.

Its just interesting to look back at all those posts and see which if us was hurling insults (European Dole-sponging, Gutless turds for one), and who was continualy trying to defend their viewpoints and conceeding when proven wrong.

All I wish is that he somehow finds himself a dictionary and learns what hypocrite and slander actually mean.

And what the ? means. (i did not state that the Japanese were surrendering before the bombs were dropped...I was asking if it was true, trying to get him to go look and think about what he was saying)If my origional thoughs on the Japanese surrender were incorrect, then I stand corrected.

And, when someone says the get their info from a website, and name the site...when the hell does that translate as "you don't get it from anywhere, you just make it up"?????

For the record (I know no-one else really cares, before you all post a bunch of flames at me for this as well as everything else) my worldview comes from my Religious beliefs (NOT the same as Lurches, lets just say we are very differant), my desire to read and learn about the world around me, and my ability to observe and make decisions based upon what I have seen.

So, Im sorry if we've bored you all to tears over the last few days, but we one of the most important things in this world is how other people see it...we can learn a lot from one another, its just that some people don't want to try.

i see that my previous comment was either skipped or selectively ignored due to its content, so i'll post it again:

this sounds suspiciously like what happened back at kutztown university in january 1995. i was a sophomore and we found out one day that bill clinton would be speaking in our field house. the administration bulletin about the event mentioned something to the effect of "protestors will be dealt with accordingly". i don't remember the exact wording but i remember being outraged. students were told that they were being given priority to see him speak. so my roommmate and i got in line at 5:30am two days before the speech to get tickets. had to skip my first class because we didn't actually receive our tickets until 9:30. so at 6:00 am on the morning of the 10:30 speech, we got in line. at 9:30, when the doors opened, students were held at bay while we watched busload after busload of special interest groups being led in first. when they were all inside and seated, approximately 100 students were let inside. needless to say, students were outraged after standing outside in the freezing cold in january in pennsylvania only to be cast aside in favor of less volatile voters. so if you think for a second that this is soley a republican tactic, you're wrong.

I am a student at Ohio State, and I had many friends graduating this quarter. In my opinion, I'm glad I wasn't graduating, so I dont have to deal with such bullshit. I hate George Dubya. He is a moron and so was his dad and brother Jeb. I dont even know why OSU wasted their time having such an idiot speak. Just my $.02

Jen

Hey Wil,
My professor has a great pin about George W. It says, "Strong as a rock, and just as dumb." If from this you cannot tell my opinion of the man something is wrong with the world and not just our leadership. I am huge fan, eversince "Stand By Me." Just had to say that and now back to the issue. The man is faced with horrible issues and is making a decent attempt as a war-time president. However, he cannot handle any domestic issues properly, and hopefully Senator Kerrey shall take this responsibility from him in 2004. We can only hope. Bush continues to hold onto Reagnomics and cowboy politics, both which can ruin this nation. The voters will hopefully recognize these attempts at impeachment of our most personal and constitutional rights. Until then, let us encourage all not to complain, but to write our Senators, and VOTE!!!! That is the power!!!!!

Wil, which of your rights exactly have the Bush admin. trappled on? C'mon... list 'em for me. In your daily life, have activity have you been kept from performing? Sleeping late? Managing your web site? Are you seeing Govt. Boogy Men in the shadows at twilight? Afraid of getting caught masterbating in your Ben & Jerry's ice cream?

I love the left when they start foaming about men in black suits coming for the liberal paranoid - it's so left coast and trippy cute! It's also very passe since 9/11.

Grow up boy. DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE that GWB would actually try to arrest those who disagree with his policies. DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE the press would let that happen? DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE that fair minded American people would allow it? On top of that, you believe some jag-offs on the internet. The same knuckle heads who cut and paste boobies on Consular Troi.

You can't begin to understand the mindset of the "McCarthy" era because you have a comic book way of looking at life. You ignore the documented history of communism's evil and it's millions of victims world wide. Your pie eyed world view equates the Nazis with those good people who simply disagree with you. You throw names at those who engage in the arena of new ideas while typing out outdated morals and ideas on this silly site.

Worst, you tread on a dimming celebrity and still refuse to simply grow up. I heard about this site from friends in Dallas - and we're laughing at you. Your comedy career is at hand! Comedy uber goofy.

CJ, was there any actually reason to your post other than to gibber about sad, perverse lonely activities that you seem to be too knowledgable about not to engage in yourself?

"do you really believe that GWB would actually arrest those that disgree with his policies"

Its been done before. It happens all over the world, even now. Why so hard to believe?

"Do you really believe that fair minded American
People would allow it?"

Yup. Theve done so before. The Japanese-American Internment camps during the war. (for trek fans, I think George Takai was in one of them...) The Mcarthy Communist Trials. These were people who held views that were considered Anti-American, many of them had been living happily in America all their lives. But if they were commies, they got arrested, usually shopped in by their friendly neighbors.

Looks like your the uber goofy one. Go get a life, or preferably a history book, and read it.
Learn.
Think.
Grow.
Stop dragging those knuckles, monkeyboy.
If you don't like Wils site, the answer is so simple that even you could follow it. You won't even need a step-by-step guide.
Just dont come here.
Its that simple.
Now go away, the rest of us are busy evolving. We got past swinging from trees ages ago. Give it a try sometime.

Looks like Amelia is right.

http://spinsanity.org/post.html?2002_06_16_archive.html#85179250

I know you all hate Bush, but this shit just makes you look downright pathetic. You people come across just as petty and stupid as those people obsessed with Clinton's cock.

This will probably get missed in the flood of comments, but...

1. If our civil rights have been so badly eroded, how can we complain on the Internet. I noticed that DU is hardly hidden in any way. The Secret Service could shut them down anytime they wanted. There are overzealous idiots on "both" sides and everywhere you look. Keep calling them on their idiocy, of course, but we are hardly living in a police state.

2. Of course Bush is not the best qualified candidate for President. Really well qualified people get other jobs that pay better and have less heartache associated with them. Personally, I think Bush seems relatively competent FOR A POLITICIAN. The disclaimer is important since I don't think politicians, in general, are all that competent.

Bolie IV

I have been irate many times as I sat here reading this web page. I can see it's useless to point fingers or insult or call names. I support the war on terror. I support the constitution. I support good, honest, hardworking, America-supporting people. And I am glad to live in a country that supports people that support ALL of the opinions put forth on this page.

I am a British TV producer researching news stories for the BBC and it may be helpful for you to follow up the College Student's Intimidation story in a new book called "The Greatest Sedition Is Silence - Four Years In America" by William Rivers Pitt - (writer and teacher).

Mr. Pitt's book is a very well researched personal view of what is happening to America now under the neo-conservative Bush administration, and he seems very certain that the students were threatened with arrest and explusion for a peaceful protest in which they merely wanted to turn their backs on George W. Bush.

William Rivers Pitt edits the excellent news and comment website at:

www.truthout.org

There may be more back up for the college story in the site's archives.

I'm tired of Americans - including one or two on your website Will - referring to 9/11 as killing 3,000 Americans. This is nonsense.

Please let me explain why.

(a)just over 3,000 people were killed on 9/11.

(b) people who were killed on 9/11 came from over 60 countries.

I find any claim made by Americans that 9/11 was only an attack on Americans offensive and arrogant.

Please ask visitors to your website to get their facts straight.

Secondly, Iraq has nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11.

All the best and have a good Christmas,

Brian Gregory

Will,

The reason I am so annoyed when many - but not all -Americans claim 9/11 killed over 3,000 Americans is because this is untrue and implies Americans do not care about the non-Americans who lost their lives for CNN tells us in '9/11 victims' names posted at Ground Zero' http://www.cnn.com/2002/us/09/10/ar911.wtc.names.numbers/index.html tells us the total number of those who died at the World Trade Center (including those who died on the hijacked planes but excluding the hijackers) were 2,797 people; the number of people who died in the attack on the Pentagon (including those who died in the hijacked plane but excluding the hijackers) were 184 people and the 40 people who died on the hijacked Pennsylvania plane (excluding the hijackers) and 403 police and emergency service workers. This brings the total to 3,424 people.

The people who died on 9/11 came from 85 nations not only the United States. For the full list of nations please go to: 'The International Toll of September 11th 2001' http://usinfo.state.gov/topical/pol/terror/terrormap.htm

Best wishes,

Brian Gregory

WORK RIGHTS are the CONTEMPORARY BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS///SAGA-formated OPEN LETTER
to the responsible on Work Unions and main Labour Movements:
Equal Opportunities Commission (EOC); Customer Contact Point; Overseas House
Quay Street, Manchester M3 3HN , Tel. 0161 833 9244 , Fax. 0161 835 1657
E-mail: info@eoc.org.uk
Commission for Racial Equality (CRE); Elliot House, 10-12 Allington Street,
London SW1E 5EH, United Kingdom Tel. 020 7828 7022 Fax 020 7630 7605
E-mail: info@cre.gov.uk
Disability Rights Commission (DRC); DRC Help-line , Freepost MID 02164,
Stratford-Upon-Avon CV37 9BR Tel. 08457 622 633 Fax. 08457 622
611
Textphone 08457 622 644 E-mail: ddahelp@stra.sitel.co.uk
Commission on University Career Opportunity (CUCO); Woburn House, 20 Tavistock
Square, London WC1H 9HQ Tel. 020 7419 4111 Fax. 020 7388 6256
E-mail: fiona.waye@cvcp.ac.uk

DfEE Work-Life Balance and
The Universities' and Colleges' Staff Development Agency (UCoSDA); Ingram House
Wilkinson Street, The University of Sheffield, Sheffield S10 2GJ Tel. 0114
222 1335
Fax. 0114 222 1333 E-mail: ucosda@sheffield.ac.uk

Before above responsible adiministrations this letter was been sent to the close
authorities as "Sagoformaterat ÖPPET BREV till SACO, LO, TCO
chefer&styrandeparasiter som svikit arbetarklassen exempelvis Mammele freakness
Wanja Lundby-Wedin, master pimp Sture Nordh, SACO's top-ponce Anders Milton bl.
a. lika fega styrelseledamöter som slicker judiska kapitalisternas skitiga röv,
visar sig att detta är deras sann yrke istället att vara hederliga
fack-representanter" etc......

A Saga on the Svekish Model Work Rights; "Stable-boys forever!...(Int. English
language version)

**

- The only cow in a small town in Goetheburg's "AMS-project-farm courses"
stopped giving milk. The people did some research and found that they could buy
a cow from Halmstad for 2 000 crowns, or one from Malmuu-city for 1 000 crowns.
Being frugal, they bought the cow from Malmuu. The cow was wonderful. It
produced lots of milk all the time and the people were amazed and very happy.
They decided to acquire a bull to mate with the cow and produce more cows like
it. Then they would never have to worry about the milk supply again. They bought
a bull and put it in the pasture with their beloved cow. However, whenever the
bull came close to the cow, the cow would open mouth and want licking. No
matter what approach the bull tried, the cow would move away from the bull and
he could not succeed in his quest. The people were very upset and decided to
ask the A.M.S. (Arbetsmarknadsstyrelsen)-chief, who was very wise, what to do.
They told the rabbi what was happening. "Whenever the bull approaches our cow,
she wants to lick and than moves away. If he approaches from the back, she
moves forward. When he approaches her from the front, she backs off. An approach
from the side and she just walks away to the other side."
The A.M.S.-chief thought about this for a minute and asked, "Did you buy this
cow from Malmuu?" The people were dumbfounded, since they had never mentioned
where they had gotten the cow. "You are truly a wise rabbi," they said. "How
did you know we got the cow from Malmuu?" The A.M.S.-chief answered sadly, "My
wife is from Malmuu."
**
- Bruxel authorities pumped money in whole 90s and started projects
for jobless in member countries...
- Did anyone have chance for a kind of job?
- A kind of new job? Yes!.. All the project leading team faced court for the new
methodes to steal "EU money"...
- ?!
**

- We had a panorama in the beginning of 90s...
- What kind of panorama? - "Work War is the War of Classes"; yes, a
kind of the Class War Story... - Let's hear this story!
- The first issue of Class War was produced in 1983 by a small group of people
based in Swansea. Their background was in the production of a local, populist,
agitational paper called the Alarm, which achieved some notoriety by exposing
the corrution of local council leaders. The first issues of Class War were aimed
at the large, punk, anarchist and pacifist movement of the time, for instance
followers of bands like Crass. The articles in Class War slagged off
pacifism and the Peace movement and encouraged the idea that violence is
necessary. They put forward a straigh forward analysis, identifying the enemy
not only as "the system" or the "State", but as the ruling class (not ony as a
class, but also as individuals within that class). The miner's strike started
in 1984 and the paper and its followers reacted to it swiftly. The writers of
Class War had wanted to see the anarchist/punk ghetto take up the rebellion
unleashed by the inner-city riots of 1981. Now that anger was taken up by
thousands of miners throughout the country. To a large extent the paper dropped
its discussion of the inadequacies of the CND and called for direct physical
support for the miners. Class War alone supported the direct action of the
strikers. Readership soared, not least in mining areas. miners queued 20 or more
for the paper at the big Mansfield demonstration in 1984. Class war was now a
paper with readers and supporters well beyond the wildest expecations of its
first producers. The Class War Collective decided that the time was ripe to go
beyond the paper and called a Bash. the Rich march in 1985, from Notting Hill to
Kensington The Stop the City demonstrations of the early 80's (which were not
called by Class War) Had reflected the new mood in the anarchist scene, and
around 500 people took part in this first incursion (albeit symbolic) of a
hostile working class mob into a rich area since the 19th century. Another Bash
the Rich march took place from Camden to Hampstead (well, yes, we did get
stopped halfway) and a very enjoyable day out to Henley Regatta took place in
1986. What was significant about all this was that we went to them, to the areas
where they lived, which made them uncomfortable if only for a shortime. The
First Class war conference of some 50 people took place in 1985, and a rally of
over 200 people was held in Holloway. The inner-city riots of late1985 proved to
be another boost for Class War (12 000 papers were being sold each issue that
Autumn) but following the end of the Bash The Rich campaign, an increasing
number of people around the country wanted to consolidate the gains of the last
three years. A national conference in Manchester supported their proposal that
the groups and individuals who wrote and sold the paper should form "Class War"
groups as part of a National Federation with common 'aims and principles'. The
reason we chose to federate was that it is the most democratic form of
organisation, whereby groups within the federation have a large degree of
freedom within an agreed set of politics and strategy. Some people could not
accept the idea of such a degree of organisation and left - whoops! The end of
the miners strike was the last straw fo th British Left. They had failed
dismally to come o terms with the changing political climate and the strongest
Tory government since the war. The Labour Party went to the right, and groups
like the Communist Party and the Workes Revolutionary Party faded inot
obscurity. The traditional areas of class conflict had all but disappeared (eg.
the work-place) The new battles were taking places in the streets and the
communities of our towns and cities, like the yuppification of traditional
working class areas. This is where Class War politics came into the forefront.
We thrived! In 1988 we launched an ambitious national tour called "Rock Against
the Rich" with ex-Clash singer Joe Strummer. This was to promote Class War's
politics and name far and wide. It was the biggest event or campaign ever put on
by an Anarchis/libertarian organisation in this country. Spring 1989 saw the
production and distribution of Class War start to improve. From being an eight
page bi-monthly we went to being a six-weekly, sixteen page, full colour
tabloid. The Federation shot to prominence after the 1990 poll tax riot in
Trafalgar Square where the Metropolitan Police got a well deserved beating at
the hands of thousands of people from all over the country. In stark contrast to
the Left, particularly Militant, who all rushed to condemn the rioters, a
Federation spokesman said they were "working class heroes" on national TV and
radio. The Media was gobsmaked, questions were asked in parliament and Class War
was read out in the House of Commons and Lords. At the Autumn 1990 National
Conference in Manchester the Federation voted to become a membership
organisation, with membership fees, and a straightforward constitution. We
decided to do this to pull together, more efficiently, the Federation's
resources, to make us a more effective national organisation and to bring in
increased democracy with the proper election of officials and deligates. At the
Victory March in late March 1991, celebrating the repeal of the Poll Tax, the
Class War Federation contingent was by far the biggest, with thousands of people
marching with us. Much to the annoyance of Militant and the Police, who thought
they were going to have it all their own way! In association with grass roots
anti-Poll Tax groups and prisoners support organisations the Federation
organised a successful Bailiff Day of Action, in July 1991, which saw poll tax
bailiffs intimidated and harassed all over the country, turning the tables on
these scum who profit out of misery and poverty. Class war has also taken off
internationally in the early 1990's with new Class War groups springing up in
Europe and the USA and an international conference in London in 1991.
** - Do you know Article 26
- What about? - "All Persons are equal before the law and are
entitled without any discrimination to the equal protection of the law. In this
respect the law shall prohibit any discrimination and guarantee to all persons
equal and effective protection against discrimination on any grounds such as
race, colour, sex, language, political or other opinion, national or social
origin, property, birth or other status." International Covenant on Civil and
Political Rights (ICCPR)
- They should add; "From each according to his abilities, to each according to
his needs."
- Poem?
- Karl Marx said...
- Poet?
- ?!
**
- What was different than all other situations when
you tells on work rights, specially when man compare with the situation of the
beginning of Millennium? - I have a different tale on this subject,t too!
- Listening! - JOBS with JUSTICE COALITIONS, labelled this version...
- Go on! - Like a barnraising, Jobs with Justice works from the
ground up; in more than 30 cities around the country, local coalitions are
organized for solidarity and mobilization. Coalitions are autonomous and each
has a steering committee comprised of representatives of the organizations that
are members of the coalition. Through the Jobs with Justice Planning Committee,
local coalitions, along with members of the National Steering Committee and
national staff, set priorities for the Jobs with Justice network. Under "How to
Contact" you will find contact information for local Jobs with Justice
coalitions. If you are interested in starting a coalition, look at "How to
start" for some basic tips; once you check that out, call the national office or
a local coalition near you to talk through your plans. Finally, the "Resources"
section lists resources available from the national office to local coalitions
in the Jobs with Justice network. **
- When Bill Clinton visited his girlfriend Kristina Axen Olin, I was
"catch-boy" at hotel and listened what Clinton to Olin explained...- The sex
stories with Monica Lewinsky? - No!.. He said, my sweetie, please, Save Social
Security! - ?!
- Social Security is America's most successful social program. It protects
families when a worker retires, is disabled or dies. Social Security benefits
are lifelong, guaranteed and unmatched by any private insurance plan.
Contrary to the myths coming out of Washington now there is no crisis in Social
Security -- but there will be if Democrats and Republicans get their way and
privatize the system. For more information on what you can do to save Social
Security visit the links below. Union Links: The has extensive documentation on
the current situation on the web site. xabc... The Labor Party is running a
campaign. xbbc... has some great fact sheets and talking points for the
campaign.
**
- I wonder what the Swedish Mature whore Kristina Axis Olin did? - She was
corrupted by the Jewish lobbeis, saboted all the welfare institutions... And
started two different registration centers against the jobbless leftists... Job
center and Night-wanderer guards in the suborbs... These groups watched good the
banks, McDonalds and prepared cheaper workers, meantime discriminated the
persons who criticized oligarchical authorities... - What say the Great Working
Class and Work Unions on this unjustice? - They are loistening program 1,
watching Robert Assberg and other Jew scharlatans, washing brain with jewish
newspaperrs like DN, Expressen... - I understand taht American Jewish
whore Monica Lewinsky was more honorable than Swedish whores, at least Lewinsky
cried but we didn't see any minimal replex by the second class of this issue
lika Kristina Axen Olin... - ?!
** - What about the WORKERS' RIGHTS by all
other official and communal authorities, Sir? - Well!... They are sleeping by a
medicine,,, medicine labelled "Work Union trap, Swedish model"... Jobs with
Justice Workers' Rights Boards (WRB) are committees made up of local labor,
religious, political and community leaders who lend strategic support to
unorganize workers fighting for justice. During a campaign for workers' rights,
members of a WRB are called upon to exert moral and political persuasion aimed
at turning around an unfair employer. When initial efforts fail, the WRB
spearheads direct action, media blitzes and other highly visible and aggressive
tactics to compel a boss to meet protest demands -- or face widespread public
exposure and scrutiny. Ultimately, the WRB looks to promote alternative
organizing models that unify and empower workers, while educating the broader
community about workplace abuses and engaging everyday people in the struggle to
improve employment standards. - I know workers fired for things as
simple as setting off metal detectors at their plants because of metal slips in
their brassieres. Even if there is no union and the employee has not violated
any labor laws, we need to raise the community's outrage over violations of
workers' dignity.
**
- Sir, where is the Swedish Working Class which should struggle against all the
oppression and unfairness?
- My Laponian wise grandfather had a joke as answer; As Premier Mr. Goran
Pestzion was walking on a beach one day, his foot tripped on a partially buried
bottle. Picking it up, Bill rubbed it to expose the label. Suddenly a cloud
poured from the bottle and a huge genie appeared. "Thank you - oh, thank you
for saving me from the prison I've been in. I've been in there for hundreds,
yes, hundreds of years. As a expression of my overwhelming gratitude I will
grant you one wish." Mr. G.rån Petsion, being a world leader, knew exactly what
to ask for. "Peace in the Laponia!" he quickly replied. The genie seemed
confused. "Laponia?!... Laponia?!... I can't seem to remember... can you help
me out a little? The Premier quickly has a world map brought over and he
carefully points out the affected area of the globe, recounting briefly the
long-standing geopolitical instability of the area. The genie's eyes widen and
he says "Oh, yea!.. Now I remember. The Laponia! Whew. That's a tough one. You
know, they've been fighting over there quite literally for millennia. I hate to
admit it, but I think that's more than I can handle. I'm sorry. Can you wish for
something else?" Premier, obviously crestfallen at such a missed opportunity,
can think of only one other wish: "Could you make the Swedish Working Class like
my cat?" The genie pauses, grimaces, then says, "Let me see that map again.
Where is that Class?!"
- ?! **
- Even Marxists have brilliant chains today, because we all workers
forget what Grandfather said!
- What?
- Workers of the world unite; you have nothing to lose but your chains.
- Is Karl Marx really your Grandfather?
- ?!

**

- The secret of getting rich is not to work hard, but to get a lot of other
people to work hard for you.
- ...you mean?
- ...likely Michael Parenti **

- What are you thinking on these incredible scenes? - We must know that
our weakness is Imperialism's strength, I understand here again... - I agree
with you, Comrade Jonas Hållén! - You are welcome, Comrade Lars Törnman!
**
- I think, democracy should work better!.. Criminals and collaborators should be
arrested!
- Should we arrest the criminals?!. Don't make me laugh! - Well, I see the
double roles and false rules of the juridical instruments... What a shame we
been forced to label it "democracy"... How thus majority of people, thus living
creators, stinky mass could be so incredible nonsense blind meanwhile all the
enormous fraudulent process?!.. Unbelieveable!... This is a glaring
injustice!.. I wonder, what goes wrong by the juridical instruments... How can I
say?! It is very strange!... You now, if you see all these incredible cases,
thick-headed attitudes... - How? Do you explain? What is concrete that
you remember? - Yes, I remember that David Janzon, a redactional worker of
Radio Islam, was sentenced to 4 months' imprisonment in October 1992, for the
station's agitation "against an ethnic group". Are the provocators of Capitalist
Fascist lobbies are really a ethnical group?! - There is so specially
groups? Okay, Jews!... It's the overclass group, nobody can imitate such
shurks... - But when you been oppressed so your accusation can only
be refuseed... The shurks are the masters 'cause they experinced a lot of cruel
methodes since many years... You can only suffer like many freedom fighters...
- Concrete cases? - Very much!... The judges of system who play dirty
rolls... It is extra incredible on Swedish justice-scenes that many foolish
judges been corrupted by Jewish authorities and they play extra horrible rolls
as pycho-proff doctor magister at policlinics... I can not meet all the judges
nor observate all the cases but I met many high-staff at Golf Club Tenerrife,
they explained... Shameful!... I can not explain here what they say on the
corrpted colleges, so awfully shameful... ... Court material look likes
simetrical sences, reasons are too similarly... Many papers of court been
published by the Bonniers, Nordstedt... Same mechanism publish as basic Zionist
propagand material, too... EU-membership... After 1995 impressed it by the
democratical authorities of other countries? - Unfortunately, it's in all
frauds, much more dirty now... If any true jurist goes to United Nations related
commissions or the independent justice authorities, so we shall most interesting
scandals... - What kind of scandals? - For instance Osmo
Vallo&Tony Mutka and other members of the "assassination on the so called
Resande Folket" cases... Märta Pettersson and others who murdered by the
"imported criminals" like Bengalian Zionist Mafia moblized in the EU; similarly
recruitment cases... Remember; what the relatiives of Tony Deogan, Dagmar
Hagelin, Anders Gustavsson demand... - Don't make me worry with
examles, don't list please much more!.. - It's not me who create the
official shame lists!.. Did you hear Osmo Vallo's two brothers and all other
relatives are arrested, too... The victims and witness been arrested instead of
murderers... Otherway, many freedom fighters forced to be jobless and living
under minimal standards... Most famous concret case is Stefan Dimiter
Tcholakov who labelled as "laborious" and Work Rights fighters Jimmie
Östergren, delegated adviser (former grafiker) Bengt Pettersson and Ahmed Rami,
because of these bravehearts criticized the thieves by the Capitalist Jewish
lobbies... Laponians who fight for own mark and minority rights, therefore
prisoned their representative character Olof T. Johansson, the true Socialists
like Bengt Frejd, Sara Lidman, Staffan Ehnebom, so-called the "Free Speech
Fighters", anti-Capitalist demonstranter like Jan Hatto, Sten Arne-Zerpe,
Dietlieb Felderer, movements who struggle against the weapon-handlers like
Henrik Westander (before professur-chair gift) and by his side likely flexible
Calle Höglund, anti-Imperialists Hannes Westberg, Herman Schmid, journalists
Staffan Beckman, Stefan Hjertén, free-mind intellectuals like Rainer Holm, Linus
Brohult, honoured priest K. G. Hammar and hundreds of the anti-Imperialists who
been registrated by the lobbies... - What is common with them? -
Also! When a Fascist accuse them so judges punish the reviewers, immediately...
But when the oppressed people leave any accusation acceptance, can easily be
refuseed ... The requests of them almost been absolutely refuseed... Read two
different cover of assassinations for example one victim called Daniel
WRETSTRÖM and second one Tony DEOGAN; so you'll be shocked if you discover many
incredible freakness, parallel points; for instance how the prosecutors and
judges corrupted by financial lobbies and how all the gang members released, how
the evidences disappointed, witnesses forced to go in silence or they
disapponted, too...
- Why the DN, Expressen and other big papers awoid of to publich these true
stories?.. They awoid of to show the real discrimination?! Schindler's List was
only a filmatic illusion, actually the true boss never gave a chance peace in
communities... You know, Bonniers, Wallenberg, Bilderberg-gangs and "Bulldogs"
drive the Swindlers' lists, means all the honoured intellectuals been
registrated on their computers... Therefore Stockholm-Canberra changed to be
second plot area of Jew York-Tel Aviv's armed Mafia... - Yes, it's!.. But
what a lucky I have been warned before!. - The authorities are blind on
such actions.. Why? - Because every big shurk drives by the big lobbies in
this big SvekJa zionized Kingdom... - ?! - How can we could
informed and know the truth!?... - I can't reply all in two minutes?!
- Well!... I understand better... It's a modernised version of enormous
hypocrisy... And I understand why the worlkd couldn't react when Jews slaughed
people in Sabra, Shatila, Jenin... Everybody watched on tv meanwhile druck
Coca-Cola, chips, bonbons... - Like the film-druged idiots?.. - No,
Sir!... We have incredible reactions and collaborated feelings too, remember,
we all cried when we watched on the Swindler's list, whole lies master-piece on
scenes... - Shame on double-moral masters!.. Where are the all good peoples
now?! - No way to Pessimism, please!.. Well, I see a positive case here on
the Scandinavian Jewish DN, Expressen, Menorah pages; Maximum sentence for the
desecration of cemeteries - an outrage which traditionally targeted Jewish
cemeteries - was raised from 6 months' imprisonment to 2 years. Yes, the
prisonment period raised in 1993, Spring. Then... - It should not calls for
case; it's provocation... There is no any single case in SvekJa, means nobody
sentenced, nobody improsined for desecrations.. - Maximum sentence will be
2 years! Isn't good? - I want not talk on the sentences good or not
good... But I'm coming from Skaane and I witnessed who targeted the
cemeteries... - Who? - Jews!... I saw them... They were there
and porovoced very succesful so they manipulated sitation... Therefore there is
no prisoner after this pharagraph ' cause they aimed change the rules...
- I remember a similarly case, my mother witnessed and told us about the foxy
Jews who played theatre at the street on 30 November in Germania... It was
before WW III, Jewish fanatics crashed own glass and won enormous generous
compensation by the reasurance firms... But their media manipulated the world by
the help of american Imperialism so all the analphabets crying on every 30
September worldwide, every year like a crying festival, meantime the Zionist
boss' laughing behind the windows...
**
- This is not the Cold War but a form of ongoing Cold War, what drives now by
the lobbies... This area demands the prejudiced scientists... - Why the
oppressed folk don't protest or discuss these problems... - Ever and never!
This is not the results of the football matches... People need knowledge on
biological developments... - Biological? Bur the lobotomies and
sterilization methodes were only in last century?! - System have now most
avanced methodes for instance isolation, registration and systematically
injustice... Only two tousand youngs become suicide in SvekJa Kingdom, two times
been a short news.. - Youngs?... But adults? - They never
counts by half officially pools.... Animal lover bourgeoisie have
sex-partner-dogs, counts for identification and health rights, but not the
discriminated persons... Never mind!... - There aren't really a single
one modernized democratical institution?
- ?! ** - I wonder why many
immigrants sets to work without language courses meanwhile many others been
discriminated because of their language is not "wonderful, brilliant"?.. - I
met many people too... For example after Warszawa pakt's collapse fleed
manybiologs to the occupied Middle East, Australia, SvekJa and specially the
laboratory workers sets on the jobs without any oppression... - Did you
found any explain about this subject?.. - Not directly... I met a family
in SvekJa, who calls for BOLDTs, escaped from Baltics by the way of so-called
"official Al Capone Raoul Wallenberg" Co's false Finnish pass and corrupted
authorities in Kingdom by the way of Jewish lobbies... A cunning mature, drives
"Invandrar Publications"... She explained that all these scientists had already
one or two international languages what been respected... - She lies!.. I
know a writer, know six or seven language but SvekJa system set him too the
cleaner-catch boy courses... - Yes; I understand... Jolin replied this
case too; "maybe the writer criticised the oligarchical targets..." -
And she publish these subjects on the Invandrar Tidningen? Bravo!... - You
will be chocked; she help to the lobbies to registrate opposite... - Was she
biology-worker in Baltics... - No!... But system need such families to
follow the people and therefore she didn't go to the claenar courses and nor any
language course although her vocabulary is worst when I compare with other
immigrants... Nowadays fixed this family a credit possbility by the lobbies and
Swedish American authorities,looks like a support to publish weekly propagand
bulletin, called "Sesam"... - Is it a propagand bulletin which the
redacteurs in Jew York recommended? - Yes!... Worst and most dangerous in the
world... - Do you explain; what you discovered by Sesam or chief Jolin
Boldt or Jusek/jurists' judadominated syndical sect media runs by Göran Boldt
Co. although this zionist gang never had a single one scientist in the
family!.. - Yes, it's!.. But such chiefs are clever to use the regularly
credits of system... I am an ordinary people and regularly reading all the
issues of Sesam/Jusek falsification magazines and look at on these pages, what
these gangsters provoce: "Immigrants always have problems.. They must complete
their education and integrate to the democratical values..." Very
provocative...It means if you never been accepted as true citizen so you must
think that your education is low, complete it... If immigrated person is
non-judaic originated must complete cources to be disher, even if man is
professor.. But other immigrant who came from Warszawa and presented himself as
academician, accepted to be professor wit´hout a true diplom.. If you criticize
this dirty deal, riskable to be labelled that you collapsed on integration...
- A kind of tregistrated psycho? - Definitely!.. This is a nonsense
market... The masters of this neo-liberal "smiling fascist process" show no
pardon... Since many years the Swedish immigrant publications run by the fascist
zionist readcteurs, collaborators and inseminate false imagination... This is a
insemination what the Zionist Fascists do against thesecond class people in Tel
Aviv... In SvekJa Kingdom, by this shurk-coup drivessame project... Look at
these pages, even the Laponians counts like the second class people and never
discuss serious their minority rights, work rights by the industrial
investigations of Kingdom... They handled often like the Gypsies,more worst;
they handled like prisoners on its own marks like the Palestinians who prisoned
his own haoses there in the occupied Middle East... Do you discussuor rights
here on Immigrant pages? Never... Boldt have credit by Spaarbank and Nordea's
Jew chiefs... Why? Because, Boldt-gang is the best flexible which uses like a
condom against Human Rights...According of these shurks there is no any Zionist
Occupational Gang in the world, but Palestinians been counted as problematics...
Palestinians described like the immigrants there, what the oppressed people
behandles here in SvekJa Kingdom... Boldt and her lap-dogs manipulate the
questions of immigrants and never answer thequestions although there is two
pages for responses... - I know a Jewish paper in USA, redacteur send
letters himself and replies later instead of the true readers... -
Similar tactic!... What Big Brother do, Swedish hypocrites just imitate it...
Not only this fetty imbecill's Sesam, all other creit-addicted papers
administrations making copies of ordinary people's letters... mostly all these
half-officially "Invandrar" publication industry "brain washing instruments on
the immigrants" running on this line... what thelobbies, so-called
"registrationsnamnden" and the collaborators by the Swedish ministries like
much and therefore pumping money.. - Now I have a little question; is
Boldt-gangs are Jewish originated... - More dangereous... Members, so-called
"edsvurna" by the Zionist lobbies!...But how you guess about the origins of
these shurks?! - I am not so stupid although I like sometimes discuss
football, too... - ...and maybe a private question, too!.. How you can be so
close to Jolin!... - She like small and younger Africans like a tradition by
the bourgeoisise fetties nowadays and it was plus point when she discovered I am
from Ethiopia... - More question? - No more, 'cause I have already
all the answers on this area specially experiences by such kind of chiefs who
need my massage... This is biology, too; bio-physique... - But why all these
lobbies hate Rainer Holm?.. Rainer is not immigrant.. - He registrated
because of the critics againt the system and projects.. - What kind of
system? Whose projects, whose rules? - Kidding? - ?!
**
- Different faces but same play on the dirty scenes!..
- That is right!.. Unfortunately, a crow goes but another crow comes...
Betrayers love eacht other and they always have supporters by the financial
lobbies... For example Sparbank, Nordea, Associates thieves Co,
Citibank/CitiGroup, even CSN and other similarly ziondominated betrayers,
lean-mousetraps...
- More dangerous than all other classical mafia examples... Because all these
liberalized instruments have both legal and illegal leagues, different faces on
the different scenes...
- Flexible fascism!..
**
- Not only this case and such victims, all the anti-imperialists
are the potentially criminals, according to the registrators of lobbies...They
are suspicious in all cases, on all the connections... - They are
suspicious perhaps only on our duties... Otherways I met an interesting gay, he
talks perfect Persian like a true Iranian citizen, practiced around of Gulf...
- Dehdari? Kamali? Tagawi? - Bijan Fahimi!.. This gay, Persian Zionist
case enough to explain any connections between many Swedes... Such "imported
instruments" help to compare with the opprtunities and opportunists for example
these persons systematically been discrimined: Staffan Ehnebom, Jimmie
Östergren, Ahmed Rami, Ernst Rainer Holm (regime critic worker, disappeared in
Gaevle city just after May Day 2003), Henrik Westander, Osmo Vallo (murdered by
police torture in Malmuu-city) and his prisoned brothers, Tony Deogan and
Anders Gustavsson (both murdered by system supported violence leagues and
prosecutors didn't accuse anyone because these poor boys weren't from
bourgeoisie cathegories in the community and both criticized sytem by any
articles before), Bengt Frejd, Olof T. Johansson, Sara Lidman, Calle Höglund,
Belay Mekkonen, Hannes Westberg, Linus Brohult, Sven Wollter, Gunnar Thorell,
Murat Yildiz, Bodil Margret Lindqvist, Staffan Beckman, Ísmet Celepli, Juan
Fonseca (when he had not so intensive interesse on money), Ditlieb Felderer,
Stefan Hjertén, Stefan Dimiter Tcholakov...
- Is it dangerous to have same name? - Very riskable!.. Nephew Stefan
forced to be psyhico because one of the his relatives in Balkan were the
anti-Zionist guerilla leaders... One of the guerillas had same name forced for
Independent Makedonia and jailed by false accusations of two Jewish judges from
Bulgaria just after 1945. Guerilla leader had no possibility to defence himself,
Jewish judges published only the false accusations, including fictive movements
who leaned weapon from Germania under WW II. Although many corrupted judges and
prosecutors were the traitors, this power manipulated history; nobody succeed to
choose what is right what is wrong by medial campaigns... Guerillas, like
"Uncle Tcholakov" sentenced without any minimal evidence.. He died there... We
see another Tcholakov in Scandinavia, immgrated, but pursued and falled in
incredible troubles... This nephew Tcholakov, "immigrated heimatlos Stefan"
borned in 1944 as Dimiter, become a brilliant academical carrier in Sofia
university and fleed to SvekJa Kingdom, completed 180 university points but
prevented from work life, pursued, isolated, discriminated by the the Jewish
registrators, lobbies, specially the collaborators of Clas Lilja
"genetical-researcher Zionist clan" members in the Waexsjö city university...
I can add other figures, too; for example the victims from West Front like
Robert Malecki as true Vietnam deserter and as second category; Jan Myrdal,
Teddy John Frank, Frank Baude, Peter Bratt, (his cell-shared-comrade Jan
Guillou pissed off from lists because he is a multi-milliarder rich, reached to
be droged creatur at last), Dagmar Hagelin (been pursued by Zionist lobbies who
collaborated with dictators of South America and murdered there by fascist
military of Astiz.. Dagmar murdered because her father listed as Marxist and
very interesting now, his family affected by persecution, all the relatives
troubled similarly case and systematically hunting by the Zionist lobbies),
Torsten Leander (only this one pursued person compensed as symbolic maneouver),
Work Rights Fighters Jimmie Östergren from Högdalen and his ombudsman Bengt
Pettersson from Folks house Raagsved Ghetto district, Lilian Gustavsson who is
mother to Anders, 17, murdered by torture methodes of bulldog Anders Carlsberg's
fascist boys at Fyrshuset trainee center in Hammarby bourgeoisie area of
capitol. After that Anders Carlberg prized as Integration chief and poor mother
Lilian still betrays by the Jewish manipulation center Expo's "professional
liars"...
- It looks like a living history...
- That is right and tv redaction collected much more figures, the names of the
victims, all the almost anti-imperialists... - The "Human enemies"
will not like to talk on such cases.. They hate the truth... - It's true!...
The profiteers of system hate human being... We collected here hundreds of
names... Count please the victims of Estonia ferry, which used to transferring
the nuclear weapons to the West and sinked by an explosion; prosecutors hunted
the criticer intellectuals not the criminal propagandists of Jewish
DN-Expressen-Menorah falsificators nor the boss of weapon markets...... Why thus
people counts in two different categories and what is difference between two
oppressed or only been registrated followed people I don't understand... But you
can notice much more if you visit Veritas Co. Veritas fraud league is a computer
and distribution which serve the falsificators, Swedes call him "Jankele Pirat
kopiormästaren!", means "Bitch falsificator masters' bastard"... - What
is common with all these plays? What is the connection but with our tennisplayer
monkey? - That is the question... They don't know anything and
therefore we are on the duty, means their unknowledge is our gain... -
Game?! - You need go to the ear specialist, my friend; Nordic climate
is not fit to your upside... - ?! **
- Please, my friend!... Take these coverages back to the archives!.. Explain
nothing there, outside;please! I'll do tanksgiving because I have only ond year
to be retired.. - Wait!.. Wait!.. My son and daughters already at AMS and
their fiancees fixed places at Länsarbetsnämnden, Migration teater's
integrationsverket.. It was difficult to be staff there, without any true exam,
nor really job interviews... We mustn't leave their situations on risk!.. - ?!
**
- I witnessed any related cases... But a woman who formated this explain she was
been guilt, instead of the suspected persons... Don't make laugh on such
stories, please!... One of these writers named Bodil Margret Lindqvist wrote a
saga/story and faced PUL when the Evangelist coup of Swedish church spioned
her... But folks insist to be solidarised with Bodil Margret Lindqvist... Dod
you know, why? Resistance against discrimination... Saga on Ulf BERG , for
instance, this saga is a strong file of Bodil's works... Saga-files are a kind
of action; yes, I should remember that Bodil Margret Lindqvist was VPK-follower
rebel... - VPK? - Vaensterpartiet kommunisterna.. Main European
leftist parties changed themselves but traditionally hate clans of zionist
imperialism didn'rt change the persecution process on the antiimperialists...
- They hate human being... - That's right!.. This is one of the
reasons; yes, she was a famous member by Communist Party... There are any
related explains on her own homepages what she been attacked and therefore
cleaned many pages..
An example about the first story pages of Bodil Margret Lindqvist:
http://home.bip.net/mors/saga.html
Bodil's ordinary corrected (nicked A. Maria Oilworkerson) short reserv page:
http://pub.alxnet.com/guestbook?id=1034058

Short story creations like Comrade Bodil's extra diary pages:
http://pub.alxnet.com/guestbook?id=2346394 There are many
solidaríty groups around such anti-imperialist figures for example, the readers'
notices to the story teller Bodil:
http://books.dreambook.com/boa100/boa102.html
http://books.dreambook.com/boa100/boa102.sign.html
Bodil's close friend Comrade Jörgen "Snegroy" (second nick: Kennedy Palme)
built a support page:
http://www.javascript.nu/cgi4free/guestbook/guestbook.pl?account=snegroj3&link
- ...so far you works on Internet, it's possible that anybody try to manipulate
it.....
- That is right!.. Tere are many fanatics like Livets ord and other fascist
lkeagues who attacking the anti-imperialists. - Definitely!.. Bodil's
works been attacked by Livets ord... There are many server, like Maccabi Jewish
staff and fake Anti-Fa homepages... They still contunie to manipulate... This
is the true terror, advanced by technical support lobbies...
- Sometimes we see good friends, who show very useful solidarity for instance
Jörgen K.; he is Bodil's close friend, struggles well. - This is the
"True Living history"... - If you have any question so I recommend
you'll call to this civil-courage symbol, "Story-teller".. Here is the directly
phone: Bodil Margret Lindqvist tel. 00.46.31.746 48 03 e-mail:
031.3310815@telia.com - 031? - Mölndal, Vetlanda...
- Wet? Land? - Yes, it's is a piece of SvekJa Kingdom!...
**
- Even it's not acceptable!.. My heart says; "No!.." - What is most
unfair? - To be handled like the animals in the farm of George
Orwell.. Look at all these masters of swindler who have two-legs only
difference between the other kind of piggs... - I understand your
reactions!... But if you insist to go on the last two legs, riskable that you
can be sanctioned.. Did you heard that many people gone suicide? - Media
didn't explain...... - Whose media? Anyway there are many people, even
an ordinary list can take many pages of newspapers... Advertisements are
important than suicide victims, nowadays... - You mean that the system can
piss off... - Legalized cleansing by modernized methodes... Hundreds of
people commit suicide only in last year... - Human? - ?!
**

- I wonder what is the reason this story-teller uses a strange grammar.. Bad
english, according to the web administrations.... Worst than my chief's school
english level...
- I understand you, too!.. But you know, I met this autor, a clever girl who can
talk wonderful.. I mean, she is a successful person when she talks plenty
fluently on other matters...
- But why this girl tells her story in so incredible strange english?
- I try to explain!... Yes, I asked her about this flat language... She replied;
"When I wrote in correct english, pissed off by the bourgeoisie dominated
media"... So, after this explain I checked it and witnessed that she has
right...
- I wonder the majority been masochists nowadays?!
- Ye', it is stranger than language!... ... Maybe we are living in a period
there bourgeoisie living a social sickness like mass masochistical delusion
system... We piss off the normally attitudes...
- Also, you mean the autor aims to write good tales in bed grammar to fix the
barries of establishment on this sick medial world...
- Approximately...
- But she make folks laugh!... Please, watch this clip, super irritable bad
english.. She makes me laugh, too!...
- Sure!.. Story teller aims it... Otherwise, you are a living evidence that she
succeed to make laugh you like any other pieces of this oligarchical system!..
- What!?..
- ...and at last this story teller added that she believe in "Mankind changed
so much, nowadays civilizated people mostly looks like a kind of animal who can
learn during laughing"...
- ?!

**

- This broadcasting clip remind me of "the Invisible Writers".
- What does "invisible writer" mean?
- Many years ago I knew a grizzled old playwright named Ray. He lived off state
disability checks, carried his manuscripts in brown paper bags, and drank cup
after cup of black coffee, which I poured for him from behind the counter of the
coffee shop where I worked. He had one piece of advice for me: "Read Othello.
If you want to be a writer you must first read Othello." Ray was a blue-collar
guy who had never gone to college, but he had read Shakespeare, checked out from
the public library near the furnished room where he lived. Ray understood plot
because he had lived and experienced it. He was a born writer. Over the years
I've met a diverse collection of writers who have never been published or earned
any academic credentials, yet whose claim to the title of artist is genuine.
These invisible writers are soldiers and bakers, convicts and salesmen, winos,
hairdressers, firefighters, farmers and waitresses. Their only qualifications to
literary authenticity are their writings and their desire to write. Often the
only time they have is stolen time, and their private scrawls end up on cocktail
napkins, penciled in the margins of receipts, on any piece of paper handy. I
got to know Tom Carson during the first Gulf War, shortly after his platoon had
been sent to Kuwait. We never met in person. He had written to a co-worker of
mine who had moved on, leaving no forwarding address. When I saw the U.S.
military return address on Tom's letter, I decided to answer it myself. We began
a correspondence that lasted through the war and after he returned to Fort
Benning, Georgia. During a hectic two months, Lt. Carson wrote 39 poems. His
themes were the regimented insanity of military life, isolation and loneliness,
the wind and rain of his soul. Carson wrote his lines in rare solitude, in a
barracks or a tent. During the day, he told me, the thoughts gathered in his
head; he censored them but the forbidden words found expression anyway, for even
the U.S. Army cannot discipline the imagination. People imprisoned in
stultifying, menial jobs can summon, with even a minimal command of language,
something entirely private, unfettered and incalculably powerful. Most
importantly, it is something of their own creation that cannot be taken away.
The sense of purpose and identity that comes with being a writer, creator of a
private world, can be life altering. I've known truck drivers who are
natural-born storytellers; fishermen who paint starkly beautiful word pictures
of life on a crab boat in the Bering Strait. I met a barely literate ex-convict
whose short story about losing his wife and child in a revenge killing for a
gang crime he'd committed was the most heartbreaking thing I've ever read. I met
a ex-alcoholic who wrote about being abandoned by her husband. In a few simple
paragraphs this uneducated woman in her mid-50s expressed a universal sense of
loss in an entirely unsentimental fashion; something that cannot be taught in
any MFA program. My own father, a novelist who was never published, once wrote
about being fired for writing on the job – a chronic problem in his lifetime. He
worked on an assembly line in a factory that manufactured radios, and the
foreman caught him writing one day while the neglected radio parts moved past
him on the belt. "I was only half a radioman," wrote my father. "In my heart, I
was a poet." As Chester Himes wrote in "The Quality of Hurt": "No matter what I
did or how I lived, I had considered myself a writer....It was my salvation. The
world can deny me all other employment, and stone me as an ex-convict...as a
disagreeable, unpleasant person. But as long as I write whether it's published
or not, I'm a writer." I met Celia at a roadside diner, where she cooked greasy
breakfasts for travelers whose faces she'd never again see. Writing, for Celia,
was a way of being elsewhere, of undoing, undreaming, her mundane daily life.
The monotony of her job and the deadening rituals she performed daily were the
inspirations for the poems she scribbled on used order tickets. To hate your job
and do nothing about it is a failure of imagination: a true life sentence. A
Frenchman I know who was a maitre d' at one of the Washington's finest
restaurants, possesses a novel he composed in the twilight time between the
lunch rush and the dinner hour. His joy on writing it was immeasurable. That it
may never be published did not faze him. The point is that he created it. He
finished it. It is his. "Fiction completes us, mutilated beings burdened with
the awful dichotomy of having only one life and the ability to desire a
thousand," Mario Vargas Llosa wrote. I've often looked for my old playwright
friend Ray's name in print, but have never seen it. I imagine him sitting in a
coffee shop somewhere, brow furrowed as he revises lines of his latest play,
completely absorbed in the world of his characters. I'm sure it frustrated Ray
at times, that his work went unrecognized, but it never occurred to him to quit;
just like it would never occur to him to stop breathing. It is not strictly a
tragedy that Ray's plays, the maitre'd's novel or Celia's poems remain
unpublished. Much of the work comes into being for private reasons of the heart.
If every sentence that was written was printed and bound we would drown in a sea
of words – as it is, thousands of books are hastily published, barely read and
forgotten. Writing itself is the aim, for it is writing, not publishing, that
transforms individual human experience. To write, even in obscurity is
worthwhile. As Samuel Becket put it, writing is a way of leaving "a stain upon
the silence."
- It's true!.. Wonderful described and we are listening a kind of the "stain
upon the silence", just here...
**

- Who rules such insane systems of the satellites? - Bilderberg crowds,
nowadays.. There are other servers too, masked "projects, foundations, EU
programme" etc... For example manipulated Mål 3 and such projects... - Who
told here about the "Mål 3" projct or such projects around the jobcentres? -
It's me... and I add a list about the main betrayers on this subject... -
Her!.. I see!.. Thanks!..
- Read it to the folks, please!.. We understand the Svekish language!... -
All right!.. There were any parallel projects like Mål 3, EU project for
jobseeker academicians...
- I remember... The chiefs steal the resources...
- Yes, it's!...
- We have a documentary clip on this case, but it's in Svekish language... No
problem; I want to see the main figures on this fraud...
- You are welcome!.. **
- Den här Mål 3 falsifikation visar ett annat ansikte... Prickades i Bruxel
p.g.a. enorma förskingrings skandaler... Det är mycket intressant att de soim
stulit Mål3 prpojektets EU bidrag skulle vara i fängelset, blivit omplaserade i
Jobbcentra och Integration Office byråerna...
- Vem är dem?
- Redaktionen har fullständigt listan men jag löäser här bara huvudtjuvarna,
okay?
- You are welcome!..
- Mål 3 , EU projektet som jobbcentrum som drabbad plundringen... Main figures
of half-officiallly thieves:
Hanna Zeland, Conny Zetterlund, Pia Zetterlund, Magnus Skagerfält, Eija Swärd,
Cecilia Af Södermalm, Agneta Rödin, Marlene Helgesson, Marianne Berg, Jessica
"Bambi" Zetterlund, Cecilia Eng, Cecilia Sundborg
Marlene Helgesson, Vikdalsv. 76, 131 40 Nacka, Stockholm Order forms available
via customers' booking phone: 00.46.8. 7183433
Pia Zetterlund, Hugins v. 1, 131 46 Nacka, Stockholm Order forms available via
customers' booking phone: 00.46.8. 7160029
Hanna Zeland, Johan Printz v. 21, 121 46 JoHannaShov, Stockholm. Here is an
original example, XXX announcement of thus Mammele, copied just from the Jewish
porno magazines: "If you wish talking on the hot matters, just do it; call me,
lovely: Tel. 00.46.11.36 13 60, Tel. 00.46. 8.462 52 00, Tel. 00.46.8. 462 52 01
Tel. 00.46. 8.6003632 Tel. 00.46.8. 80 00 29 E-post:
hanna.zeland@integrationsverket.se Extra service
reception/information available to prepare by Ulf ÖFVERBERG, Johan Printz v. 21,
121 46 JoHanneShov, Stockholm"... This Mammele get job as Chief at Integration
Office.
Anders Carlberg: (borned 1944, father: anonymous, mother: famous Jewish
"Mammele", was active on liberal Street-markets under WW II) Fascist traineer
chief built a centre, Fryshuset, Youth Trainee and Brain Washing Center for
instance arrangers travels to Auschwitz etc. and the fake immigrants get
recruitment opportuinty at this adress: Fryshuset, Hammarbyfabriksväg 13, 12006
Stockholm Tel.växel: 08-462 22 00 Fax: 08-462 22 19, 02 and after bloody carreer
chief Carlberg prized several times, get second and third positions by
other centres for example AMS and Integrationsverket. AMS is higher
administration office over "Jobbcentrum"-files... Integration Office select the
immigrants and control the top secret registration information during whole life
all of them... What a wonderful world, Carlberg's maitress Hanna is chef at same
section at Integration Office. Porn Industry's famous Mammele Hanna Zeland is
Anders Carlberg's vice secretary there... Anders Carlberg was member by the
Swedish Communist movements in 1968 and steal the secret info about Eurpean
Communists and regularly sent these infos to Jew York, "Big Brother"... In 70s
declared himself as 94% Moderate (according to the interview hours by the
system's Fascist media for instance Blågula frågor ultra nationalist
organization and others). Under Apartheid regime South Africa travelled several
times (to seethe museums-sick!) and collaborated with interesting figures until
1986 declared that South Africa is best example on Nationalism and we copied a
paragrapf on that directly from BGF newspaper; ""Sydafrika är ett exempel på att
nationalismen kan vara positiv. På samma sätt kan också vi i Sverige använda oss
av den positiva nationalismen för att ena landet. Genom att tillsammans kämpa
för Sverige kan vi bidra till försoning och enhet mellan 'gamla' och 'nya'
svenskar.". When Olof Palme murdered in 1986 this chief cut his ties (travel to
museums to Johannesbug&Tel Aviv) started Youth Travel arranging to the JobCentra
Auschwitz, Treblinka, Majdanek and recommended to built Jobcentra in Sweden in
the Ghetto districts, too...
Magnus Skagerfält: Hanna Zeland's pimp but seems like officially husband only on
the state documents... Order forms available via customers' booking phone:
00.46.8. 396184
Jan Olof Karlsson... Nu är han statsråd, samt Migrationsminister och får EU
revisöravdelningens pensionslön som plus... Fryshuset's chef, typical Fascist
doggy...
Nils Olof Berggren, Anna Lisa Stoican, Anna Lena Söderström
Annela Wikström: Drakenbergsg. 33, 117 41 Stockholm Master Mammele Wikstrom
works on all kind of kinky XXX markets... Order forms available via customers'
booking phone: 00.46.8. 668 97 51 Hon är en av de högst ansvarige att bedriva
"Förintelselögner" och vara chef på s.k. "Levande historia" falsifikations
myndigheten. Hennes överste är Heléne Lööw lika relaterade instrumenten hos Tel
Aviv maffian... upphandlingsenheten@lanab.amv.se
A lot of most willing whores of System s.c. Official labelled reserv pigs
realizing provocations which related Job opportunities:
hakan.andersson@integration.stockholm.se,
reidar.persson@integration.stockholm.se,
karin.steffensen@integration.stockholm.se, cecilia.eng@esf.se,
dick.lindberg@vantor.stockholm.se, love.hagerstrand@rinkeby.stockholm.se,
tensta.roa@stockholm.mail.telia.com, lena.ring@stadshuset.stockholm.se,
lena.lefverstrom@vantor.stockholm.se, infostab@stadshuset.stockholm.se,
borje.norlen@stadshuset.stockholm.se, jany.plevnik@integration.stockholm.se,
info@integration.stockholm.se, goran.edenberg@integration.stockholm.se,
hardy.hedman@stadshuset.stockholm.se,
ann-christin.hartman@integration.stockholm.se,
hakan.andersson@integration.stockholm.se,
reidar.persson@integration.stockholm.se,
karin.steffensen@integration.stockholm.se,
fernando.velasques@vantor.stockholm.se, lena.lefverstrom@vantor.stockholm.se,
lena.k.roth@skarholmen.stockholm.se, gunilla.glatz@kista.stockholm.se,
clennart@algonet.se, jan.runfors@farsta.stockholm.se,
mohammad.derakhshan@kista.stockholm.se, karin.enge@hasselby.stockholm.se,
eva.jonsson@enskede-arsta.stockholm.se, stella.fare@stadshuset.stockholm.se,
thomas.furth@pol.stockholm.se, hans-goran.olsson@pol.stockholm.se,
jan.bjorklund@stadshuset.stockholm.se, lotta.edholm@stadshuset.stockholm.se,
ann-christin.kjellman@pol.stockholm.se, inge-britt.lundin@lk.sll.se,
birgitta.rydell@stadshuset.stockholm.se, mats_sahlin@liberal.se,
caroline.lundbom@fundamerican.com, hakan.tenelius@sahlin-tenelius.com,
ulf.frideback@telia.com, helen_jaderlund_eckardt@liberal.se,
ingela.gille@vpc.se,
johan.jakobsson@spray.se, bjorn.ljung@net.ptj.se,
Kenneth Sjökvist, ordförande i regionala parterskapet Phone: 00.46.8.737 41 53
Folkrörelserådet Hela Sverige Ska Leva: Margareta Spång Phone: 00.46. 176-131 03
Företagarnas Riksorganisation: Renèe Berglund Phone: 00.46.8. 406 17 76
Försäkringskassan: Yvonne Allnér Phone: 00.46.8. 676 15 43
Kommunförbundet KSL: Bernt Lindstenz Phone: 00.46.8. 615 94 08
Kooperativt Idécentrum KIC: Eva Johansson Phone: 00.46.8. 447 48 02
Länsarbetsnämnden: "Estonia massacre main suspect", Bordellmamman Birgitta
Heijer Phone: 00.46.8. 508 810 00
Länsstyrelsen : Tomas Stavbom Phone: 00.46.8. 785 54 40
SACO/Jusek: Göran Boldt Phone: 00.46.8. 665 29 13 (Immigrant-betrayer
publication's main figure Mammele Jolin Boldt's extra husband on paper)
Stockholms Handelskammare: Rikard Akhtarzand Phone: 00.46.8. 555 100 00
Stockholms Hantverksförening: Lars Österlind Phone: 00.46.8. 442 78 41
Stockholms läns landsting: Jan Scherwall Phone: 00.46.8. 737 51 09
Svensk Handel Region Stockholm: AnnChristin Gräns Phone: 00.46.8. 762 76 01
Svenskt Näringsliv: Lars Jilmstad Phone: 00.46.8. 762 70 00
TCO-rådet i Stockholms län: Swante Holm Phone: 00.46.8. 641 77 43
Svenska ESF-rådet i Stockholms län, Box 6815, 113 86 Stockholm; visitadress:
Rådmansgatan 70, Sth. Order forms available via customers' booking phone:
00.46.8. 457 33 00 Fax: 00.46.8.457 33 01
Gustavsson Nina, regionchef , phone 00.46.8.457 33 11, 070-556 28 70
nina.gustavsson@esf.se
Achmed Henrik phone: 00.46.8.457 33 04, 070-654 33 66 henrik.achmed@esf.se
Göran Bergendal 00.46.8.457 33 05, 070-553 26 73 goran.bergendal@esf.se
Mary-Anne Berglund: 00.46.8. 457 33 18, 070-306 00 82
mary-anne.berglund@esf.se
Ingalill Davidsson: 00.46.8. 457 33 17, 070-714 66 44
ingalill.davidsson@esf.se
Chatarina Hedén: 00.46.8. 457 33 06 chatarina.heden@esf.se
Per Hollander: 00.46.8. 457 33 25 per.hollander@esf.se
Sven Jansson: 00.46.8. 457 33 07, 070-553 26 72 sven.jansson@esf.se
Yvonne Jansson: 00.46.8. 457 33 12, 070-321 07 41 yvonne.jansson@esf.se
Maria Maunsbach: 00.46.8. 457 33 09, 070-307 00 68 maria.maunsbach@esf.se
Johan Nordqvist: 00.46.8. 457 33 08, 070-552 26 55 johan.nordqvist@esf.se
Marie-Louise Norrgård: 00.46.8. 457 33 10, 070-552 26 75
marie-louise.norrgard@esf.se
Ingmar Paulsson: 00.46.8. 457 33 16, 070-556 28 61 ingmar.paulsson@esf.se
Susanna Rockström: 00.46.8. 457 33 19 susanna.rockstrom@esf.se
Birgitta Ström: 00.46.8. 457 33 13, 070-568 75 18 birgitta.strom@esf.se
Margit Unnefeldt: 00.46.8. 457 33 15, 070-579 33 96 margit.unnefeldt@esf.se
Anna-Lena Wettergren Wessman: 00.46.8. 457 33 14, 070-661 8506
anna-lena.wessman@esf.se
Marianne Öberg-Håkansson: 00.46.8. 457 33 20, 070-550 44 20
marianne.oberg-hakansson@esf.se
plus; Kenneth Sjökvist, Nina Gustavsson
Frågor angående rekvisitionsblankett & utbetalning
AMS Ekonomitjänster, ESF-Gruppen; phone 00.46.21.15 32 60
...and much more doggies in act to pursue the registrated people...
**
- Wow!.. So many instruments, officially tittled... - Much more, like a
fabric... Big Brother's Big Brothel needs advanced pimps... - Well!.. Here is
another guest in tv studio... From "Fantastic Sweden"?.. Okay!.. Welcome, Sir!..
Vad skulle du tillägga om de leende fascistiska chefernas namn och funktioner
omkring det so called the Elimination&Concentration Lager Vaarberg Jobcentre?
- Här har jag en lista som den finska homosexulla evangelian hora Jerker Finnman
tappat ...
- Få se!...
- Lena Thorson:BiA chefen. BiA means "Support and job" (to her friends and clan
members, in fact)...
Carina Lilja: Fälstassistenternas (!) samordnare&siuonistiska världsdominerande
projektet Expodus representative och mellanhandlare, reser mest till AUSrailia
att lämna rapport oim genetiska biologiska forskningar, experiment area
Scandinavia repre

WORK RIGHTS are the CONTEMPORARY BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS///SAGA-formated OPEN LETTER
to the responsible on Work Unions and main Labour Movements:
Equal Opportunities Commission (EOC); Customer Contact Point; Overseas House
Quay Street, Manchester M3 3HN , Tel. 0161 833 9244 , Fax. 0161 835 1657
E-mail: info@eoc.org.uk
Commission for Racial Equality (CRE); Elliot House, 10-12 Allington Street,
London SW1E 5EH, United Kingdom Tel. 020 7828 7022 Fax 020 7630 7605
E-mail: info@cre.gov.uk
Disability Rights Commission (DRC); DRC Help-line , Freepost MID 02164,
Stratford-Upon-Avon CV37 9BR Tel. 08457 622 633 Fax. 08457 622
611
Textphone 08457 622 644 E-mail: ddahelp@stra.sitel.co.uk
Commission on University Career Opportunity (CUCO); Woburn House, 20 Tavistock
Square, London WC1H 9HQ Tel. 020 7419 4111 Fax. 020 7388 6256
E-mail: fiona.waye@cvcp.ac.uk

DfEE Work-Life Balance and
The Universities' and Colleges' Staff Development Agency (UCoSDA); Ingram House
Wilkinson Street, The University of Sheffield, Sheffield S10 2GJ Tel. 0114
222 1335
Fax. 0114 222 1333 E-mail: ucosda@sheffield.ac.uk

Before above responsible adiministrations this letter was been sent to the close
authorities as "Sagoformaterat ÖPPET BREV till SACO, LO, TCO
chefer&styrandeparasiter som svikit arbetarklassen exempelvis Mammele freakness
Wanja Lundby-Wedin, master pimp Sture Nordh, SACO's top-ponce Anders Milton bl.
a. lika fega styrelseledamöter som slicker judiska kapitalisternas skitiga röv,
visar sig att detta är deras sann yrke istället att vara hederliga
fack-representanter" etc......

A Saga on the Svekish Model Work Rights; "Stable-boys forever!...(Int. English
language version)

**

- The only cow in a small town in Goetheburg's "AMS-project-farm courses"
stopped giving milk. The people did some research and found that they could buy
a cow from Halmstad for 2 000 crowns, or one from Malmuu-city for 1 000 crowns.
Being frugal, they bought the cow from Malmuu. The cow was wonderful. It
produced lots of milk all the time and the people were amazed and very happy.
They decided to acquire a bull to mate with the cow and produce more cows like
it. Then they would never have to worry about the milk supply again. They bought
a bull and put it in the pasture with their beloved cow. However, whenever the
bull came close to the cow, the cow would open mouth and want licking. No
matter what approach the bull tried, the cow would move away from the bull and
he could not succeed in his quest. The people were very upset and decided to
ask the A.M.S. (Arbetsmarknadsstyrelsen)-chief, who was very wise, what to do.
They told the rabbi what was happening. "Whenever the bull approaches our cow,
she wants to lick and than moves away. If he approaches from the back, she
moves forward. When he approaches her from the front, she backs off. An approach
from the side and she just walks away to the other side."
The A.M.S.-chief thought about this for a minute and asked, "Did you buy this
cow from Malmuu?" The people were dumbfounded, since they had never mentioned
where they had gotten the cow. "You are truly a wise rabbi," they said. "How
did you know we got the cow from Malmuu?" The A.M.S.-chief answered sadly, "My
wife is from Malmuu."
**
- Bruxel authorities pumped money in whole 90s and started projects
for jobless in member countries...
- Did anyone have chance for a kind of job?
- A kind of new job? Yes!.. All the project leading team faced court for the new
methodes to steal "EU money"...
- ?!
**

- We had a panorama in the beginning of 90s...
- What kind of panorama? - "Work War is the War of Classes"; yes, a
kind of the Class War Story... - Let's hear this story!
- The first issue of Class War was produced in 1983 by a small group of people
based in Swansea. Their background was in the production of a local, populist,
agitational paper called the Alarm, which achieved some notoriety by exposing
the corrution of local council leaders. The first issues of Class War were aimed
at the large, punk, anarchist and pacifist movement of the time, for instance
followers of bands like Crass. The articles in Class War slagged off
pacifism and the Peace movement and encouraged the idea that violence is
necessary. They put forward a straigh forward analysis, identifying the enemy
not only as "the system" or the "State", but as the ruling class (not ony as a
class, but also as individuals within that class). The miner's strike started
in 1984 and the paper and its followers reacted to it swiftly. The writers of
Class War had wanted to see the anarchist/punk ghetto take up the rebellion
unleashed by the inner-city riots of 1981. Now that anger was taken up by
thousands of miners throughout the country. To a large extent the paper dropped
its discussion of the inadequacies of the CND and called for direct physical
support for the miners. Class War alone supported the direct action of the
strikers. Readership soared, not least in mining areas. miners queued 20 or more
for the paper at the big Mansfield demonstration in 1984. Class war was now a
paper with readers and supporters well beyond the wildest expecations of its
first producers. The Class War Collective decided that the time was ripe to go
beyond the paper and called a Bash. the Rich march in 1985, from Notting Hill to
Kensington The Stop the City demonstrations of the early 80's (which were not
called by Class War) Had reflected the new mood in the anarchist scene, and
around 500 people took part in this first incursion (albeit symbolic) of a
hostile working class mob into a rich area since the 19th century. Another Bash
the Rich march took place from Camden to Hampstead (well, yes, we did get
stopped halfway) and a very enjoyable day out to Henley Regatta took place in
1986. What was significant about all this was that we went to them, to the areas
where they lived, which made them uncomfortable if only for a shortime. The
First Class war conference of some 50 people took place in 1985, and a rally of
over 200 people was held in Holloway. The inner-city riots of late1985 proved to
be another boost for Class War (12 000 papers were being sold each issue that
Autumn) but following the end of the Bash The Rich campaign, an increasing
number of people around the country wanted to consolidate the gains of the last
three years. A national conference in Manchester supported their proposal that
the groups and individuals who wrote and sold the paper should form "Class War"
groups as part of a National Federation with common 'aims and principles'. The
reason we chose to federate was that it is the most democratic form of
organisation, whereby groups within the federation have a large degree of
freedom within an agreed set of politics and strategy. Some people could not
accept the idea of such a degree of organisation and left - whoops! The end of
the miners strike was the last straw fo th British Left. They had failed
dismally to come o terms with the changing political climate and the strongest
Tory government since the war. The Labour Party went to the right, and groups
like the Communist Party and the Workes Revolutionary Party faded inot
obscurity. The traditional areas of class conflict had all but disappeared (eg.
the work-place) The new battles were taking places in the streets and the
communities of our towns and cities, like the yuppification of traditional
working class areas. This is where Class War politics came into the forefront.
We thrived! In 1988 we launched an ambitious national tour called "Rock Against
the Rich" with ex-Clash singer Joe Strummer. This was to promote Class War's
politics and name far and wide. It was the biggest event or campaign ever put on
by an Anarchis/libertarian organisation in this country. Spring 1989 saw the
production and distribution of Class War start to improve. From being an eight
page bi-monthly we went to being a six-weekly, sixteen page, full colour
tabloid. The Federation shot to prominence after the 1990 poll tax riot in
Trafalgar Square where the Metropolitan Police got a well deserved beating at
the hands of thousands of people from all over the country. In stark contrast to
the Left, particularly Militant, who all rushed to condemn the rioters, a
Federation spokesman said they were "working class heroes" on national TV and
radio. The Media was gobsmaked, questions were asked in parliament and Class War
was read out in the House of Commons and Lords. At the Autumn 1990 National
Conference in Manchester the Federation voted to become a membership
organisation, with membership fees, and a straightforward constitution. We
decided to do this to pull together, more efficiently, the Federation's
resources, to make us a more effective national organisation and to bring in
increased democracy with the proper election of officials and deligates. At the
Victory March in late March 1991, celebrating the repeal of the Poll Tax, the
Class War Federation contingent was by far the biggest, with thousands of people
marching with us. Much to the annoyance of Militant and the Police, who thought
they were going to have it all their own way! In association with grass roots
anti-Poll Tax groups and prisoners support organisations the Federation
organised a successful Bailiff Day of Action, in July 1991, which saw poll tax
bailiffs intimidated and harassed all over the country, turning the tables on
these scum who profit out of misery and poverty. Class war has also taken off
internationally in the early 1990's with new Class War groups springing up in
Europe and the USA and an international conference in London in 1991.
** - Do you know Article 26
- What about? - "All Persons are equal before the law and are
entitled without any discrimination to the equal protection of the law. In this
respect the law shall prohibit any discrimination and guarantee to all persons
equal and effective protection against discrimination on any grounds such as
race, colour, sex, language, political or other opinion, national or social
origin, property, birth or other status." International Covenant on Civil and
Political Rights (ICCPR)
- They should add; "From each according to his abilities, to each according to
his needs."
- Poem?
- Karl Marx said...
- Poet?
- ?!
**
- What was different than all other situations when
you tells on work rights, specially when man compare with the situation of the
beginning of Millennium? - I have a different tale on this subject,t too!
- Listening! - JOBS with JUSTICE COALITIONS, labelled this version...
- Go on! - Like a barnraising, Jobs with Justice works from the
ground up; in more than 30 cities around the country, local coalitions are
organized for solidarity and mobilization. Coalitions are autonomous and each
has a steering committee comprised of representatives of the organizations that
are members of the coalition. Through the Jobs with Justice Planning Committee,
local coalitions, along with members of the National Steering Committee and
national staff, set priorities for the Jobs with Justice network. Under "How to
Contact" you will find contact information for local Jobs with Justice
coalitions. If you are interested in starting a coalition, look at "How to
start" for some basic tips; once you check that out, call the national office or
a local coalition near you to talk through your plans. Finally, the "Resources"
section lists resources available from the national office to local coalitions
in the Jobs with Justice network. **
- When Bill Clinton visited his girlfriend Kristina Axen Olin, I was
"catch-boy" at hotel and listened what Clinton to Olin explained...- The sex
stories with Monica Lewinsky? - No!.. He said, my sweetie, please, Save Social
Security! - ?!
- Social Security is America's most successful social program. It protects
families when a worker retires, is disabled or dies. Social Security benefits
are lifelong, guaranteed and unmatched by any private insurance plan.
Contrary to the myths coming out of Washington now there is no crisis in Social
Security -- but there will be if Democrats and Republicans get their way and
privatize the system. For more information on what you can do to save Social
Security visit the links below. Union Links: The has extensive documentation on
the current situation on the web site. xabc... The Labor Party is running a
campaign. xbbc... has some great fact sheets and talking points for the
campaign.
**
- I wonder what the Swedish Mature whore Kristina Axis Olin did? - She was
corrupted by the Jewish lobbeis, saboted all the welfare institutions... And
started two different registration centers against the jobbless leftists... Job
center and Night-wanderer guards in the suborbs... These groups watched good the
banks, McDonalds and prepared cheaper workers, meantime discriminated the
persons who criticized oligarchical authorities... - What say the Great Working
Class and Work Unions on this unjustice? - They are loistening program 1,
watching Robert Assberg and other Jew scharlatans, washing brain with jewish
newspaperrs like DN, Expressen... - I understand taht American Jewish
whore Monica Lewinsky was more honorable than Swedish whores, at least Lewinsky
cried but we didn't see any minimal replex by the second class of this issue
lika Kristina Axen Olin... - ?!
** - What about the WORKERS' RIGHTS by all
other official and communal authorities, Sir? - Well!... They are sleeping by a
medicine,,, medicine labelled "Work Union trap, Swedish model"... Jobs with
Justice Workers' Rights Boards (WRB) are committees made up of local labor,
religious, political and community leaders who lend strategic support to
unorganize workers fighting for justice. During a campaign for workers' rights,
members of a WRB are called upon to exert moral and political persuasion aimed
at turning around an unfair employer. When initial efforts fail, the WRB
spearheads direct action, media blitzes and other highly visible and aggressive
tactics to compel a boss to meet protest demands -- or face widespread public
exposure and scrutiny. Ultimately, the WRB looks to promote alternative
organizing models that unify and empower workers, while educating the broader
community about workplace abuses and engaging everyday people in the struggle to
improve employment standards. - I know workers fired for things as
simple as setting off metal detectors at their plants because of metal slips in
their brassieres. Even if there is no union and the employee has not violated
any labor laws, we need to raise the community's outrage over violations of
workers' dignity.
**
- Sir, where is the Swedish Working Class which should struggle against all the
oppression and unfairness?
- My Laponian wise grandfather had a joke as answer; As Premier Mr. Goran
Pestzion was walking on a beach one day, his foot tripped on a partially buried
bottle. Picking it up, Bill rubbed it to expose the label. Suddenly a cloud
poured from the bottle and a huge genie appeared. "Thank you - oh, thank you
for saving me from the prison I've been in. I've been in there for hundreds,
yes, hundreds of years. As a expression of my overwhelming gratitude I will
grant you one wish." Mr. G.rån Petsion, being a world leader, knew exactly what
to ask for. "Peace in the Laponia!" he quickly replied. The genie seemed
confused. "Laponia?!... Laponia?!... I can't seem to remember... can you help
me out a little? The Premier quickly has a world map brought over and he
carefully points out the affected area of the globe, recounting briefly the
long-standing geopolitical instability of the area. The genie's eyes widen and
he says "Oh, yea!.. Now I remember. The Laponia! Whew. That's a tough one. You
know, they've been fighting over there quite literally for millennia. I hate to
admit it, but I think that's more than I can handle. I'm sorry. Can you wish for
something else?" Premier, obviously crestfallen at such a missed opportunity,
can think of only one other wish: "Could you make the Swedish Working Class like
my cat?" The genie pauses, grimaces, then says, "Let me see that map again.
Where is that Class?!"
- ?! **
- Even Marxists have brilliant chains today, because we all workers
forget what Grandfather said!
- What?
- Workers of the world unite; you have nothing to lose but your chains.
- Is Karl Marx really your Grandfather?
- ?!

**

- The secret of getting rich is not to work hard, but to get a lot of other
people to work hard for you.
- ...you mean?
- ...likely Michael Parenti **

- What are you thinking on these incredible scenes? - We must know that
our weakness is Imperialism's strength, I understand here again... - I agree
with you, Comrade Jonas Hållén! - You are welcome, Comrade Lars Törnman!
**
- I think, democracy should work better!.. Criminals and collaborators should be
arrested!
- Should we arrest the criminals?!. Don't make me laugh! - Well, I see the
double roles and false rules of the juridical instruments... What a shame we
been forced to label it "democracy"... How thus majority of people, thus living
creators, stinky mass could be so incredible nonsense blind meanwhile all the
enormous fraudulent process?!.. Unbelieveable!... This is a glaring
injustice!.. I wonder, what goes wrong by the juridical instruments... How can I
say?! It is very strange!... You now, if you see all these incredible cases,
thick-headed attitudes... - How? Do you explain? What is concrete that
you remember? - Yes, I remember that David Janzon, a redactional worker of
Radio Islam, was sentenced to 4 months' imprisonment in October 1992, for the
station's agitation "against an ethnic group". Are the provocators of Capitalist
Fascist lobbies are really a ethnical group?! - There is so specially
groups? Okay, Jews!... It's the overclass group, nobody can imitate such
shurks... - But when you been oppressed so your accusation can only
be refuseed... The shurks are the masters 'cause they experinced a lot of cruel
methodes since many years... You can only suffer like many freedom fighters...
- Concrete cases? - Very much!... The judges of system who play dirty
rolls... It is extra incredible on Swedish justice-scenes that many foolish
judges been corrupted by Jewish authorities and they play extra horrible rolls
as pycho-proff doctor magister at policlinics... I can not meet all the judges
nor observate all the cases but I met many high-staff at Golf Club Tenerrife,
they explained... Shameful!... I can not explain here what they say on the
corrpted colleges, so awfully shameful... ... Court material look likes
simetrical sences, reasons are too similarly... Many papers of court been
published by the Bonniers, Nordstedt... Same mechanism publish as basic Zionist
propagand material, too... EU-membership... After 1995 impressed it by the
democratical authorities of other countries? - Unfortunately, it's in all
frauds, much more dirty now... If any true jurist goes to United Nations related
commissions or the independent justice authorities, so we shall most interesting
scandals... - What kind of scandals? - For instance Osmo
Vallo&Tony Mutka and other members of the "assassination on the so called
Resande Folket" cases... Märta Pettersson and others who murdered by the
"imported criminals" like Bengalian Zionist Mafia moblized in the EU; similarly
recruitment cases... Remember; what the relatiives of Tony Deogan, Dagmar
Hagelin, Anders Gustavsson demand... - Don't make me worry with
examles, don't list please much more!.. - It's not me who create the
official shame lists!.. Did you hear Osmo Vallo's two brothers and all other
relatives are arrested, too... The victims and witness been arrested instead of
murderers... Otherway, many freedom fighters forced to be jobless and living
under minimal standards... Most famous concret case is Stefan Dimiter
Tcholakov who labelled as "laborious" and Work Rights fighters Jimmie
Östergren, delegated adviser (former grafiker) Bengt Pettersson and Ahmed Rami,
because of these bravehearts criticized the thieves by the Capitalist Jewish
lobbies... Laponians who fight for own mark and minority rights, therefore
prisoned their representative character Olof T. Johansson, the true Socialists
like Bengt Frejd, Sara Lidman, Staffan Ehnebom, so-called the "Free Speech
Fighters", anti-Capitalist demonstranter like Jan Hatto, Sten Arne-Zerpe,
Dietlieb Felderer, movements who struggle against the weapon-handlers like
Henrik Westander (before professur-chair gift) and by his side likely flexible
Calle Höglund, anti-Imperialists Hannes Westberg, Herman Schmid, journalists
Staffan Beckman, Stefan Hjertén, free-mind intellectuals like Rainer Holm, Linus
Brohult, honoured priest K. G. Hammar and hundreds of the anti-Imperialists who
been registrated by the lobbies... - What is common with them? -
Also! When a Fascist accuse them so judges punish the reviewers, immediately...
But when the oppressed people leave any accusation acceptance, can easily be
refuseed ... The requests of them almost been absolutely refuseed... Read two
different cover of assassinations for example one victim called Daniel
WRETSTRÖM and second one Tony DEOGAN; so you'll be shocked if you discover many
incredible freakness, parallel points; for instance how the prosecutors and
judges corrupted by financial lobbies and how all the gang members released, how
the evidences disappointed, witnesses forced to go in silence or they
disapponted, too...
- Why the DN, Expressen and other big papers awoid of to publich these true
stories?.. They awoid of to show the real discrimination?! Schindler's List was
only a filmatic illusion, actually the true boss never gave a chance peace in
communities... You know, Bonniers, Wallenberg, Bilderberg-gangs and "Bulldogs"
drive the Swindlers' lists, means all the honoured intellectuals been
registrated on their computers... Therefore Stockholm-Canberra changed to be
second plot area of Jew York-Tel Aviv's armed Mafia... - Yes, it's!.. But
what a lucky I have been warned before!. - The authorities are blind on
such actions.. Why? - Because every big shurk drives by the big lobbies in
this big SvekJa zionized Kingdom... - ?! - How can we could
informed and know the truth!?... - I can't reply all in two minutes?!
- Well!... I understand better... It's a modernised version of enormous
hypocrisy... And I understand why the worlkd couldn't react when Jews slaughed
people in Sabra, Shatila, Jenin... Everybody watched on tv meanwhile druck
Coca-Cola, chips, bonbons... - Like the film-druged idiots?.. - No,
Sir!... We have incredible reactions and collaborated feelings too, remember,
we all cried when we watched on the Swindler's list, whole lies master-piece on
scenes... - Shame on double-moral masters!.. Where are the all good peoples
now?! - No way to Pessimism, please!.. Well, I see a positive case here on
the Scandinavian Jewish DN, Expressen, Menorah pages; Maximum sentence for the
desecration of cemeteries - an outrage which traditionally targeted Jewish
cemeteries - was raised from 6 months' imprisonment to 2 years. Yes, the
prisonment period raised in 1993, Spring. Then... - It should not calls for
case; it's provocation... There is no any single case in SvekJa, means nobody
sentenced, nobody improsined for desecrations.. - Maximum sentence will be
2 years! Isn't good? - I want not talk on the sentences good or not
good... But I'm coming from Skaane and I witnessed who targeted the
cemeteries... - Who? - Jews!... I saw them... They were there
and porovoced very succesful so they manipulated sitation... Therefore there is
no prisoner after this pharagraph ' cause they aimed change the rules...
- I remember a similarly case, my mother witnessed and told us about the foxy
Jews who played theatre at the street on 30 November in Germania... It was
before WW III, Jewish fanatics crashed own glass and won enormous generous
compensation by the reasurance firms... But their media manipulated the world by
the help of american Imperialism so all the analphabets crying on every 30
September worldwide, every year like a crying festival, meantime the Zionist
boss' laughing behind the windows...
**
- This is not the Cold War but a form of ongoing Cold War, what drives now by
the lobbies... This area demands the prejudiced scientists... - Why the
oppressed folk don't protest or discuss these problems... - Ever and never!
This is not the results of the football matches... People need knowledge on
biological developments... - Biological? Bur the lobotomies and
sterilization methodes were only in last century?! - System have now most
avanced methodes for instance isolation, registration and systematically
injustice... Only two tousand youngs become suicide in SvekJa Kingdom, two times
been a short news.. - Youngs?... But adults? - They never
counts by half officially pools.... Animal lover bourgeoisie have
sex-partner-dogs, counts for identification and health rights, but not the
discriminated persons... Never mind!... - There aren't really a single
one modernized democratical institution?
- ?! ** - I wonder why many
immigrants sets to work without language courses meanwhile many others been
discriminated because of their language is not "wonderful, brilliant"?.. - I
met many people too... For example after Warszawa pakt's collapse fleed
manybiologs to the occupied Middle East, Australia, SvekJa and specially the
laboratory workers sets on the jobs without any oppression... - Did you
found any explain about this subject?.. - Not directly... I met a family
in SvekJa, who calls for BOLDTs, escaped from Baltics by the way of so-called
"official Al Capone Raoul Wallenberg" Co's false Finnish pass and corrupted
authorities in Kingdom by the way of Jewish lobbies... A cunning mature, drives
"Invandrar Publications"... She explained that all these scientists had already
one or two international languages what been respected... - She lies!.. I
know a writer, know six or seven language but SvekJa system set him too the
cleaner-catch boy courses... - Yes; I understand... Jolin replied this
case too; "maybe the writer criticised the oligarchical targets..." -
And she publish these subjects on the Invandrar Tidningen? Bravo!... - You
will be chocked; she help to the lobbies to registrate opposite... - Was she
biology-worker in Baltics... - No!... But system need such families to
follow the people and therefore she didn't go to the claenar courses and nor any
language course although her vocabulary is worst when I compare with other
immigrants... Nowadays fixed this family a credit possbility by the lobbies and
Swedish American authorities,looks like a support to publish weekly propagand
bulletin, called "Sesam"... - Is it a propagand bulletin which the
redacteurs in Jew York recommended? - Yes!... Worst and most dangerous in the
world... - Do you explain; what you discovered by Sesam or chief Jolin
Boldt or Jusek/jurists' judadominated syndical sect media runs by Göran Boldt
Co. although this zionist gang never had a single one scientist in the
family!.. - Yes, it's!.. But such chiefs are clever to use the regularly
credits of system... I am an ordinary people and regularly reading all the
issues of Sesam/Jusek falsification magazines and look at on these pages, what
these gangsters provoce: "Immigrants always have problems.. They must complete
their education and integrate to the democratical values..." Very
provocative...It means if you never been accepted as true citizen so you must
think that your education is low, complete it... If immigrated person is
non-judaic originated must complete cources to be disher, even if man is
professor.. But other immigrant who came from Warszawa and presented himself as
academician, accepted to be professor wit´hout a true diplom.. If you criticize
this dirty deal, riskable to be labelled that you collapsed on integration...
- A kind of tregistrated psycho? - Definitely!.. This is a nonsense
market... The masters of this neo-liberal "smiling fascist process" show no
pardon... Since many years the Swedish immigrant publications run by the fascist
zionist readcteurs, collaborators and inseminate false imagination... This is a
insemination what the Zionist Fascists do against thesecond class people in Tel
Aviv... In SvekJa Kingdom, by this shurk-coup drivessame project... Look at
these pages, even the Laponians counts like the second class people and never
discuss serious their minority rights, work rights by the industrial
investigations of Kingdom... They handled often like the Gypsies,more worst;
they handled like prisoners on its own marks like the Palestinians who prisoned
his own haoses there in the occupied Middle East... Do you discussuor rights
here on Immigrant pages? Never... Boldt have credit by Spaarbank and Nordea's
Jew chiefs... Why? Because, Boldt-gang is the best flexible which uses like a
condom against Human Rights...According of these shurks there is no any Zionist
Occupational Gang in the world, but Palestinians been counted as problematics...
Palestinians described like the immigrants there, what the oppressed people
behandles here in SvekJa Kingdom... Boldt and her lap-dogs manipulate the
questions of immigrants and never answer thequestions although there is two
pages for responses... - I know a Jewish paper in USA, redacteur send
letters himself and replies later instead of the true readers... -
Similar tactic!... What Big Brother do, Swedish hypocrites just imitate it...
Not only this fetty imbecill's Sesam, all other creit-addicted papers
administrations making copies of ordinary people's letters... mostly all these
half-officially "Invandrar" publication industry "brain washing instruments on
the immigrants" running on this line... what thelobbies, so-called
"registrationsnamnden" and the collaborators by the Swedish ministries like
much and therefore pumping money.. - Now I have a little question; is
Boldt-gangs are Jewish originated... - More dangereous... Members, so-called
"edsvurna" by the Zionist lobbies!...But how you guess about the origins of
these shurks?! - I am not so stupid although I like sometimes discuss
football, too... - ...and maybe a private question, too!.. How you can be so
close to Jolin!... - She like small and younger Africans like a tradition by
the bourgeoisise fetties nowadays and it was plus point when she discovered I am
from Ethiopia... - More question? - No more, 'cause I have already
all the answers on this area specially experiences by such kind of chiefs who
need my massage... This is biology, too; bio-physique... - But why all these
lobbies hate Rainer Holm?.. Rainer is not immigrant.. - He registrated
because of the critics againt the system and projects.. - What kind of
system? Whose projects, whose rules? - Kidding? - ?!
**
- Different faces but same play on the dirty scenes!..
- That is right!.. Unfortunately, a crow goes but another crow comes...
Betrayers love eacht other and they always have supporters by the financial
lobbies... For example Sparbank, Nordea, Associates thieves Co,
Citibank/CitiGroup, even CSN and other similarly ziondominated betrayers,
lean-mousetraps...
- More dangerous than all other classical mafia examples... Because all these
liberalized instruments have both legal and illegal leagues, different faces on
the different scenes...
- Flexible fascism!..
**
- Not only this case and such victims, all the anti-imperialists
are the potentially criminals, according to the registrators of lobbies...They
are suspicious in all cases, on all the connections... - They are
suspicious perhaps only on our duties... Otherways I met an interesting gay, he
talks perfect Persian like a true Iranian citizen, practiced around of Gulf...
- Dehdari? Kamali? Tagawi? - Bijan Fahimi!.. This gay, Persian Zionist
case enough to explain any connections between many Swedes... Such "imported
instruments" help to compare with the opprtunities and opportunists for example
these persons systematically been discrimined: Staffan Ehnebom, Jimmie
Östergren, Ahmed Rami, Ernst Rainer Holm (regime critic worker, disappeared in
Gaevle city just after May Day 2003), Henrik Westander, Osmo Vallo (murdered by
police torture in Malmuu-city) and his prisoned brothers, Tony Deogan and
Anders Gustavsson (both murdered by system supported violence leagues and
prosecutors didn't accuse anyone because these poor boys weren't from
bourgeoisie cathegories in the community and both criticized sytem by any
articles before), Bengt Frejd, Olof T. Johansson, Sara Lidman, Calle Höglund,
Belay Mekkonen, Hannes Westberg, Linus Brohult, Sven Wollter, Gunnar Thorell,
Murat Yildiz, Bodil Margret Lindqvist, Staffan Beckman, Ísmet Celepli, Juan
Fonseca (when he had not so intensive interesse on money), Ditlieb Felderer,
Stefan Hjertén, Stefan Dimiter Tcholakov...
- Is it dangerous to have same name? - Very riskable!.. Nephew Stefan
forced to be psyhico because one of the his relatives in Balkan were the
anti-Zionist guerilla leaders... One of the guerillas had same name forced for
Independent Makedonia and jailed by false accusations of two Jewish judges from
Bulgaria just after 1945. Guerilla leader had no possibility to defence himself,
Jewish judges published only the false accusations, including fictive movements
who leaned weapon from Germania under WW II. Although many corrupted judges and
prosecutors were the traitors, this power manipulated history; nobody succeed to
choose what is right what is wrong by medial campaigns... Guerillas, like
"Uncle Tcholakov" sentenced without any minimal evidence.. He died there... We
see another Tcholakov in Scandinavia, immgrated, but pursued and falled in
incredible troubles... This nephew Tcholakov, "immigrated heimatlos Stefan"
borned in 1944 as Dimiter, become a brilliant academical carrier in Sofia
university and fleed to SvekJa Kingdom, completed 180 university points but
prevented from work life, pursued, isolated, discriminated by the the Jewish
registrators, lobbies, specially the collaborators of Clas Lilja
"genetical-researcher Zionist clan" members in the Waexsjö city university...
I can add other figures, too; for example the victims from West Front like
Robert Malecki as true Vietnam deserter and as second category; Jan Myrdal,
Teddy John Frank, Frank Baude, Peter Bratt, (his cell-shared-comrade Jan
Guillou pissed off from lists because he is a multi-milliarder rich, reached to
be droged creatur at last), Dagmar Hagelin (been pursued by Zionist lobbies who
collaborated with dictators of South America and murdered there by fascist
military of Astiz.. Dagmar murdered because her father listed as Marxist and
very interesting now, his family affected by persecution, all the relatives
troubled similarly case and systematically hunting by the Zionist lobbies),
Torsten Leander (only this one pursued person compensed as symbolic maneouver),
Work Rights Fighters Jimmie Östergren from Högdalen and his ombudsman Bengt
Pettersson from Folks house Raagsved Ghetto district, Lilian Gustavsson who is
mother to Anders, 17, murdered by torture methodes of bulldog Anders Carlsberg's
fascist boys at Fyrshuset trainee center in Hammarby bourgeoisie area of
capitol. After that Anders Carlberg prized as Integration chief and poor mother
Lilian still betrays by the Jewish manipulation center Expo's "professional
liars"...
- It looks like a living history...
- That is right and tv redaction collected much more figures, the names of the
victims, all the almost anti-imperialists... - The "Human enemies"
will not like to talk on such cases.. They hate the truth... - It's true!...
The profiteers of system hate human being... We collected here hundreds of
names... Count please the victims of Estonia ferry, which used to transferring
the nuclear weapons to the West and sinked by an explosion; prosecutors hunted
the criticer intellectuals not the criminal propagandists of Jewish
DN-Expressen-Menorah falsificators nor the boss of weapon markets...... Why thus
people counts