We continue to be the peace keepers of the World and we drastically pay for it through human lives. If we stop that role, who will take our place?

Why should the american press cover a letter posted by a small group of people? The Guardian post its because they are Anti-USA. In there minds we are the cause of all evil in the world.

I mean I realize Casey Casem is pissed because they didn't let him do the voice of Shaggy for the movie, and Leo Estrada wishes he had been on CHiPs with his Brother, but that doesn't mean we have to listen to their opinions.

If I got 100 people to sign a letter that all Arabs should be expelled from the country should the US media publish that trash too?

Hurrah for the Gaurdian!

("Peace keepers of the world"??? Hmmm...)

Thanks for posting this wil. I can already see you're going to get a lot of flack for doing so, but I for one appreciate it.

If this Jose Padilla turns out to be innocent, I'll be the first one to apologize. I'll authorize the government to pay him $20,000 or whatever in damages. But until then, let's not go nuts worrying about the civil rights of people who all the evidence shows are out to destroy us. Let's not get so worried about these feel-good civil rights concerns that we fail to do what the people want us to do: prevent the next 9-11.

Critics: whether or not you agree with all of the content of the letter (I'm not sure I do, but I'm thinking about it), surely it qualitifes as free speech in action. I'm not American, but everyone knows that's one of the great things about your country, and which you yourselves trumpet all the time. Isn't it sad that it had to appear in a foreign paper first? What does that say?

Repeat after me, Citizen:

"You are with us, or you are against us!"

Wil,

I love you, man. But, who the hell cares what a bunch of left-wing, bleeding heart liberal, Hollywood "elite" and clueless celeberties think? We are Americans and no one has the right to attack (physically) us. If you mess with us, we will and should destroy you. Plain and simple. You can not negotiate with terrorist and Islamists. Its in their blood and religion to kill every American in the world and die for Allah. I'm more than happy to allcoate resources to allow the meeting.

I'm puzzled why so many people want to bend over backwards to be fair to these members of Al-Qaeda. It's mind-boggling to me. I think it's that these people feel good about themselves when they say, "Well, I was open-minded and fair, Myrtle. I'm very concerned about the rights of this man."

Anybody can say that, but they're not charged with any responsibility whatsoever. They're not dealing directly with the threat posed by these guys and to every innocent American. These Guardian idiots aren't the ones the people will hold accountable if the next 9-11 happens because we worried about foolish things like this. We're at war, folks. Face that cold, hard fact.

There are celebrities on this list...but to call them "all celebrities" is incorrect, IMHO.

From the list:
Paul Chevigny, professor of law, NYU

Noam Chomsky

Stephanie Coontz, historian, Evergreen State College

Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz, professor, California State University, Hayward

John Gillis, writer, professor of history, Rutgers

Rev E Randall Osburn, executive vice president, Southern Christian Leadership Conference

Howard Zinn, historian

Well... thanks for posting that. I guess it the patriotic side of me.. but when i hear ANTI-American crap.... well it makes my blood boil.

the us of course makes mounds of mistakes.. and no doubt we have created half of the regimes we are trying to remove now, but are americans in general come evil force uprooting the rest of the world? i admit our society is far from perfect and most americans deal with injustices and infringements on our rights daily, but i don't remember the government pulling people from their homes and cutting off hands and feet in a soccer stadium. Better yet, allowing a class of children to burn to death in a building, because they were not wearing proper attire.

Everyone wants to bitch about the united states until they want something. The french in general have a distain for americans, but let the nazi's role through europe and who gets the call.

should we just become isolationist? i think not....... why would the rest of the world resist a country that promotes the basic freedoms of its people?

sometimes an enemy can only be reckeoned with through brut force. a nice slap on the hand for every sucide bomber, a plea to not fly our planes into buildings, a swift kick in the ass, that someone strapping c-4 to there chest whatnot is not a logical person.

9-11 was really a calls to arms for america to clean up its mess we have made in the last decade. i admit that the white house through its many predecesors have really left a bad impression for america in general....... but hey even saudi's drink coke, and buy fast food.

i will climb down off my soap box now. i just simply don't get the world's perception of my country.

THANK YOU. Let us pray that those motivated by revenge, to whom that feels like justice, are led by some gentle miracle to see the futility of that path. Let us pray that the truths about freedom upon which this country was founded will prevail.

It is worth pointing out that the United States is the only country convicted in world court of State Terrorism.

Not a popular thing to express, but true none the less.

Remember than the next time someone mentions the "Axis of Evil".

Ignorance is the bliss of small minds.
The first question to ask is: "Why did they do this?"
I have no love for terrorists, but we live blinded by the local media and political allegiance.
The next time you're oppressed by someone or something, imagine a lifetime of this and see how much you love it. The next time someone steals, or hurts someone from your family and you threaten to sue; imagine if you were told you cannot sue, you cannot do anything, and in fact you'll be punished for even thinking about sueing.

Imagine this and you'll come closer to an understanding of why they are acting as terrorists - it's the only voice they have available. And all this doesn't make it acceptable, but we have to accept our role and fight to correct ourselves before we deign to correct someone else.

I've never posted here but I check every day because I enjoy the site so much. Wil, thanks for posting that link to the Guardian article. I'm by no means a "left wing bleeding-heart liberal" and I'm scared crazy by the unilateral thinking of society in general right now. All of a sudden, it's not cool or popular to question our leaders. The "you're either with us or against us" mentality makes me wonder if the whole country has gone nuts with revenge.

I cried and mourned for hours and days after 9/11 -- such senseless loss of life should outrage EVERYONE. But shouldn't we also be outraged that our country's current leaders (on a bi-partisan level, I'm not knocking just Democrats or Republicans) have taken this opportunity to gather more power for themselves, thereby taking it away from the people? I'm going to quote Anthony Romero (ACLU director) because his words express my thoughts better than I can: "For the United States to maintain its moral authority in the fight against terrorism, its actions must be implemented in accordance with core American legal and social values.”

I would just like to know what we're supposed to do when something like 9-11 happens? Crawl under the bedsheets and hope it all goes away? No.. we have a right to defend ourselves, just as any other country has. But because we have a larger army, and more technology, we become the bully. Not our fault.

Amercian aggoance? Maybe... Do I want my family to be safe from extremests ready to kill anyone to acheive their goals? Yes. If it means being arrogant to protect myself.. so be it..

And one last thought.. let's say they do get the U.S. out of the picture...who's next on the list then?

PEACE..OUT.

Good on you Wil for having the courage to post this article. I am firmly in The Gaurdians camp on this issue and I feel it's time that those of us that oppose this administrations insanity stand together with a single loud voice that says, "Enough". The Gaurdian said it all so well I don't feel I need to elaborate suffice it to say that people blindly supporting the administration will be hard to convince that they are wrong (which they are).

Thanks for the heads up on this article!

You know, I'm a left-wing liberal type. I'm the first to say it. I'm feminist, pro-choice, and queer. But when I read this knee-jerk junk, it just sets me off.

First off, the Taleban has been systematically savaging half of their population and treating them like barely conscious fecund pack animals. I know they're only slaughtering WOMEN and not PEOPLE or anything, but maybe in the minds of all your lib'ral Bill-Maher-worshipping GUYS that might count for *something* once in a while, you know? Don't roll your goddamned eyes over it, either. Feminists on both sides of the Atlantic have been trying to get the attention of the rest of the world about the Taleban for a DECADE, and now that we're at war with them, we've got right-wingers on one side acting shocked-by-Gawd-shocked that these bastards that could beat old women to death with chains and whip little girls for smuggling schoolbooks can kill actual *people* and left-wingers on the other side engaging in the most lip-licking display of schadenfreude I've ever seen and simultaneously totally forgetting some stupid, inconsequential shit that the now-underdogs did to a coupla ho's and bimbos, mere FEMALES.

The, there's the arrogance. The right wing acts like the US gets all the CREDIT for everything in the world, and the left wing acts like we get all the BLAME. Neither side seems to be able to see us as anything but a deity, either God or the Devil. It's all ego -- we hog the microphone either way, don't we?

We're a COUNTRY. Sometimes we're great, soemtimes we suck, but anyone who honestly thinks we're to blame for everything just likes the ego-strokes of being center-stage, just like Bush and Buddies who want us center-stage for being the only voice of reason in the universe. There's a poem I read once -- oddly enough, it was in a Trek book directed toward Wes's character:

"Once in a stately passion, I cried in desperate grief:"
"Oh Lord, my heart is black with guile. Of sinners, I am chief!"
"Then stooped my guardian angel, and whispered from behind:"
"Vanity, my little man -- you're nothing of the kind."

The right wing gets off on hogging all the credit. The left wing gets off on hogging all the blame. Either way, hey lookit us! We're number one!

And it'd be nice to see ONE GODDAMNED SUPPOSEDLY LIBERAL MALE ONCE IN A WHILE remember that that other half of humanity, the one that sits to pee, counts for something once in a blue fucking moon.

another blind eye. i bet the left wing liberals would be screaming "murder" if someone walked into a supermarket with a bomb and killed several loved ones.

9-11.. the gloves came off. I applaud George W for his stand.. and the job he is doing. Its easy to critisize when u are not having to make the life and death choices daily.

Enough is enough.. enough of america kissing everyones ass to save a penny at the gas pump. lets just handle business.. and clean up these rogue terrorist groups.

Not....gonna.....post. Aww hell.

I sit somewhere in the middle of all this. I don't agree with some of the "bleeding heart liberal" (to quote a few previous posters) stuff said in this "letter". Do I like the fact we're at war? Hell no. Sticking our nose in where it doesn't belong is what got us in this mess in the first place. Do I like the fact that innocent Afghanis have been killed in the process? No. Do I think it's wrong? Yes. But, as MobbyG pointed out, we can't just hide from this. They killed THOUSANDS of innocent people. We have the right to defend. I don't believe that this is a total act of revenge. Some of it is. It's a natural reaction to something like this. But, something had to be done. If we hadn't acted, who knows what else may have happened, and there are still no guarantees that nothing will happen. People need to sit back and think about the whole picture before they jump up on their soapbox and start spouting about the evil our government is for doing this. This is not like Vietnam. They came HERE, on our soil and killed thousands. They need to be stopped. And, I don't really think Osama and his cohorts are the type you can just walk up to and say "You're being naughty, please stop," and they'll listen. Unfortunately, force is necessary.

As for this "dirty bomber" - I'm not sure how I feel about the way he is being handled. Most of me feels it isn't fair and he should be allowed due process and all other rights afforded to criminals. But, there's a small part of me that is glad he's being handled the way he is. And that's the part of me that is still freaked out about 9/11.

And, Wil, I would have to disagree with your listing of non-celebrities. They may not be celebrities ala Hollywood celebrities, but they are well known people, and to me, that constitutes a celebrity. Especially Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn. But, that's the great thing about this country. We can agree to disagree and still get along.

I have serious reservations about some of our government's new policies after 9/11, but what exactly would be an appropriate level of response be?

I'm not willing to relinquish ANY of my rights to free speech, due process, or to criticize the actions of our elected officials, but on the other hand, I don't ever want to see another 9/11 here or anywhere else in the world.

Is there anything that we can do as individual citizens that would make terrorists stop wanting to attack America?

I applaud the free speech expressed in the letter to the Guardian. I only wish they would have made it more clear as to definite steps that we (again, as individuals) could take to fix the problem. How is the underground railroad or standing in solidarity with the resisters relevent to the current situation with terrorism?

If there can be any non-military solution to the problem, then we as citizens had better take the initiative, because waiting for the government to get it right could be a bitter pill to swallow for everyone.

I notice that many of you are for the "War against Terrorism". What you fail to realize is that:
1) You are neatly falling in with propaganda disseminated by the major media sources. Way to go for having a mind of your own.
2) If Americans weren't at the top of the food chain you can bet your apple pie that the "War on Terrorism" would be directed at the US. Can't you see that Americans have been pulling the same heavy-handed sh*t for decades?
I'm sorry but pull that flag out of your ass and your head along with it.

Ok, there's disagreeing and then there's being downright rude.

Can we limit our comments to our feelings and opinions and not telling people to get their head out of their ass just because they don't agree with you?

Thanks! :)

i don't know what scares me more, the fact that there are fanitics in this world who think that violence and murder, such as the atrocity of 9/11, are justifiable in any way, or the fact that so many Americans are still wandering around with blinkers on.
I'm sick of living in a world where terrorists are allowed to thrive, but i am equally sick of hearing the same "we are America, we can do what we like" refrain. I don't want my life to be controled by a man whom I did not elect, who rules a differant country, who is totally incapable of understanding the complexities of why so many people hate America, and who thinks you can stop Terrorists with tanks and bombs.You do not protect the lives of innocents by killing more innocents, and Democracy is worth nothing if basic freedoms are curtailed, whatever the reason. Don't try to tell me that America's "War" will stop maniacs like Bin Laden, who I notice, has not been caught or brought to justice, even though Afghanistan has been bombed into the stone age, and our SAS and military divisions are still fighting Al Quaeda.
"You are either with us or against us" these are the words of a dangerous man. I notice that Bush wants to go after Iraq, because Iraq might be making weapons of mass destruction. Does that mean that the US has no such weapons of any kind, then?

Wil,

So there not "all" celeberties. The people you mentioned are professors. YEAH!!! Left-wing elitists and theologists who can't make it in the "real" world so they become teachers! Oh joy!

Everything to them is various shades of grey. These communists/socialists are the only ones who can rationalize terrorism and murder. Why do Americans give so much credit to these idiots?

Wake up, Wil!

If it were not for America being the strong force it is... you wouldn't have had the nice life you did making movies, tv shows, enjoying summers off, etc... Not to mention the $$$ you made at one time. Nor would you be able to take your wife's kids on little fun excursions like GEOCACHING and so forth. I mean, at least you can do that without threat of stepping on a mine or being shot by would-be power patrols.

Folks like these need only one way in being dealt with - and if you can't stomache it, then look away and quit being a hypocrite! I mean you obviously enjoy the benefits and the fruits of the life America has bestowed upon you and yours' -- yes? Me thinks so, young Ensign.

Your anti-American attitude is turning me off so I'll leave your site, now.

Just know baby that you feed the very system that supports you and your lifestyle(s).

So quit spreading such crap arounf the NET and go out there and find your REAL funny!

;)

Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. No matter which side your on, this is the final conclusion.

America is not always to blame for what goes on in the world, and I don't believe that the article was saying that America was. I don't think that it is right for America and all the other countries involved should go and attack Afghanistan for what happened in September. I like so many others couldn't believe what we were seeing on t.v. I'll never forget that, like I'll never forget all the other tradgys in the world.
Always find out what actually happened first, and then figure out what to do. America may be a super power, but America is not the peace keepers of the world. No one truly is. After Afghanistan,
what's next? Iraq? Palestine? Pakistan? Why not even Canada. Terrorisim is every where, America are not the only ones that have a problem with it.
I think that America's pride is getting in the way. This is just my reasoning, I don't mean to offend anyone. This is just how I see it.

IRAQ... did someone suggest that we not handle IRAQ because we have weapons of Mass destruction.

hmmm i wonder if saddam would have any issues about detonating a bomb in the US? Nah you are right, he is a totally sane man.. who would never pay into terrorism.... or pay cash to the families of suicide bombers?

Yeah he is the kinda guy i want to have a nuclear weapon... i can sleep well at night knowing he is lurkin out there.

are you kidding...... IRAQ.. well we should have handled that mess in 91. I would support any move by our government to oust saddam. just give me a m-16 and show the the road.

i notice most the the brain'aics that are oppose to militay action are prolly the first ones who would sit back.. enjoy the freedoms our framers gave us.. and NOT do a damn thing to defend our nation. TAlk is cheap in todays world.

I have never posted here, but I think that the letter in the Guardian, more than being against the War On Terror was concerned with loss of personal freedoms (have you had a close look at the Patriot Act? Go look, then you are free to move the knees in a jerking motion, if you still desire).

And since nobody has mentioned this yet,

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. " (Ben Franklin)

Happy Flag Day, y'all

Wil,

While I applaud you for having the courage to put up a link to this, which I can only assume reflects your opinions on this matter, and while I will fully and completely defend your right to do so, I do not, in any way, shape or form agree with anything in that partisan and isolationist diatribe.

Look at the names on that list. Every name that I recognized is totally and completely opposed to the Bush Administration regardless of the issue or the Administration's position on that issue. Their opinion is automatically biased and suspect.

Further, the letter implies that the US is somehow involved with or in some way responsible for the attrocities committed by the Israeli military against the Palestinians.

You are opposed to the US war on terrorism? Fine. What would you have us do? What course of action would you suggest? Negotiations? Whith whom? Concessions? The radical Islamic movement wants nothing less than the destruciton of our free and open American society. What concessions would you make? They ask for none.

From the letter: "We too mourned the thousands of innocent dead and shook our heads at the terrible scenes of carnage - even as we recalled similar scenes in Baghdad, Panama City and, a generation ago, Vietnam."

Vietnam? VIETNAM? Totally different era, totally different reasons for our actions (as wrong as they were) and TOTALLY different environment. Also, some of the people on this list are probably some of the same persons who PROTESTED AGAINST the returning soldiers who were, in their own minds, doing their patriotic duty, whether they believed in the politics of the war or not.

"...similar scenes in Baghdad, Panama City..."

What scenes from Baghdad or Panama City showed wonton and careless disregard for civilian life? More to the point, when has, in either Iraq or Panama, the US ever DELIBERATELY targeted large groups of civilians? I can think of NO examples.

I am opposed to this type of attitude. I abhor it. It disgusts me. And still, I fully and completely support the right of ANY American to hold, say and if they can, have printed this type of speech. That's what the First Amendment is about. That's what we're currently fighting for.

Kahuna

One more thing before I have to go back to work and forgo 40% of my income to the imperial federal governemnt. Oops, thats another topic.

You don't have to aggree with everything the government does. I'm a Libertarian. If you apply Libertarian thought to your personal life and government, clear and non-PC thought becomes much easier. There is wright, wrong and common sense (or un-common sense, these days). I believe that the government needs to treat ALL AMERICAN citizens with equal rights. Padilla needs to have an attorney and be granted due process under the law.

Libertarian thought also allows you to justify the total annialation of anyone who threatens your Liberty as an American. If a foreign enemy kills or attempts to kill us, they should have the understanding that we will destroy them, their country, their way of life and will kick their butt into 4th world living conditions.

Being the U.S.A and the superpower we are. We have the privilege and responsibility to the rest of the world (who, for the most part wants to be just like us economically and socially) to rid this planet of evil doers (thanks GB for the quote).

With respect (and apologies for the shameless plug), all the shirt-tearing about "with us or against us" got me so incensed I wrote an essay about it.

(title: Glass Houses)
http://www.amcgltd.com/archives/000287.html#000287

notjustanothertrekkie

I'll take my Glock and Shotgun and join you. You're right on the money. The leftest, braniacs are the ones who fled, cowardly, to Canada during the Vietnam war, who protested during the Gulf, the idots who went into the church of the nativity to check on the 'well-being' of the murderers and terrorist, and the same ones supporting the guardian.

Oh well, WE will have to kick butt ourselves so they can go on ranting about how bad the US is(the country they live in and take so much from) with no fear that a Taliban or a communist will shoot them for speaking their minds.

I wasn't even going to post any comments about the article since I'm on such middle ground when it comes to this subject. Plus, I didn't know how to put my feelings into words, but I felt the need to say that Sarcastic Cheese's post took the words and feelings right out of my head. I couldn't have agreed more with that post.

Wil,

Thanks for posting this, and thanks for putting up with all the crap you're getting from many of the posters. It seems so many here are falling under the "you're with us or against us" binary mentality of the current administration.

I love my rights - they're the best part about being an American. My freedoms, my protections...all of it is much more American than waving a tattered flag from your SUV window. Being American means standing up for your rights, and the rights of others, even if they seem to be as guilty as sin. The open letter didn't make my blood boil...the comments to the tune of "they don't have rights, they're terrorists/guilty" did. That's just sick. Equal protection under the law needs to be gueranteed to everyone, otherwise, no one's going to stop the gov't from coming after you when you're preceived as "guilty". America is wonderful, but you're not being "anti-American" by speaking out, you're doing everything the founding fathers wanted you to do.

I have an idea for afghans.....

let's just invade and lease it out to DISNEY. they can put in some condos.. rides... and part of the admission can go to help out social security.

I wasn't even going to post any comments about the article since I'm on such middle ground when it comes to this subject. Plus, I didn't know how to put my feelings into words, but I felt the need to say that Sarcastic Cheese's post took the words and feelings right out of my head. I couldn't have agreed more with that post.

Sorry about posting twice, my computer's retarded.

Spred: Your comments about teachers ("Can't make it in the real world so they become teachers") pretty much takes away any credibility you or your opinions might have had.

In simpler words: No one cares what you think now that you've proven yourself to be a narrow-minded idiot.

Y'know, I think many people are missing the point of that letter. One of the key characteristics of wisdom is TEMPERANCE. No one said we shouldn't go after the people responsible for 9/11. No one said that we had to hide and not fight back. I think the essence of the point being made here is that we need to show soberness and self-control.

I hate it as much as the next guy when a dead horse gets beaten, but you have to remember that Dubya's election was questionable... in a STATE in which he has strong family ties. Imagine that. Oh, and his father, aside from being a former President, was heavily involved in the CIA. Just.. think about it. If Gore was in office, would we be better off? That's an entirely different can of worms and something to which I cannot give an honest, educated response to. I don't know. All I know is I don't like what's happening right now.

The hatred for America is pouring over us from elsewhere and I'm really starting to feel a little uneasy about actually being American. I don't want to leave the country for any reason. Hell, my best friend just arrived in Korea for a one week business trip and I'm going to be worried sick until she's right here next to me again at home. America is turning into a big farking bully with Dubya at the helm. He needs to calm the hell down.

YES. Go after the people responsible. YES. Make an example so that hopefully someone will think twice before doing something similar again. But for all that is sacred and right and true, I just wish the goverment would PLEASE put some thought into what it's doing and proceed with a little less recklessness. How many months has it been? Osama isn't dead yet? Even if you kill Bin Laden, someone else will just rise to take his place.

The immediate reaction is revenge. Go kill all those people in retaliation for who we lost. Think it through. That will solve nothing if America does not start seriously reevaluating its priorities and the way it presents itself to the rest of the world. I destest bullies and I will not have one speaking for me, either.

I am fortunate that I was born an American this time around. I cannot possibly imagine how much more difficult it must be to live anywhere else, what with the economic conditions... from things such as natural disasters to crime to disease and famine, etc. I like living here. One of the REASONS I like living here is that I'm allowed to think for myself. And that includes disagreeing with the government if I don't.. well.. agree.

That makes me anti-American? Sorry, but I think that makes me more American that anyone who's simply following along like blind sheep. Call me names if you want. That's your right under the constitution. You also have the right to remain ignorant and make yourself look like an idiot for your "love it or leave it" and your "with us or against us" attitudes that you so freely spit out left and right.

The world is not black and white. It is nearly black on one end, nearly white on the other, and has infinte shades of grey in between. The sooner some people in this world realize that, the better for everyone.

do terrorists that are not american citizens have rights under our laws? hmmmm i don't think they are protected by our constitutional rights.

do they deserve due process? i say if they are americans committing terrorist acts... they are entitled.. if not.. than they are considered enemy combantants... and since i can remember .. are due no due process. but i am not a lawyer..so i can not debate the point.

"The Guardian post its because they are Anti-USA."

No, the Guardian publishes this because the UK still has a free press.

Let us not forget that there is legislation before congress that will allow US military intervention in the Netherlands (!) if any American citizen is tried for War Crimes at the International Court to be established there.

I am increasingly convinced there's a lot of stuff Bush doesn't want the American people to hear. Not until after he's safely re-elected of course.

Call me a bleeding-heart liberal if you please, but at least my mind is open.

Good on yer Wil for posting this link.

"Repeat after me, Citizen:
You are with us, or you are against us!"

Wil it is very arrogant of you to assume because someone supports the war on terrorism that they don't know what they are talking about. This assumption is made again and again by liberals and is not just incorrect but plain rude. I saw the towers collapse in my city and now know the threat to our country is very real. What would you have us do about it?

I look at the list of people who gave support to that letter in the guardian and it is full of academics,B list actors, and intellectuals. These are the people with their feet not touching the ground. Working people with families are not sheep, Wil. You need to get past your assumptions and really talk to people who support the war on terrorism and why they support it.

Andy Rooney said a very thing in "The Greatest Generation". He said "It is foolish to think that any peace is better than any war".

Get off your high horse and stop having such a superior and arrogant attitude towards 99.9% of the population.

It should be a reflexive act on the part of anyone who offers critical indictments of one party to look with an un-jaundiced eye at their own back yard. The article from the Guardian UK, point of origin clearly apparent by its masthead, I suppose was written with a conscience completely free of hypocrisy, considering the British decades-long campaign against the IRA, labelled a terrorist group, which seeks the liberation of Northern Ireland from the UK and reunification with the rest of Ireland.

"Clean your finger before you point at my spots."
-Benjamin Franklin

The president's prounouncement "you are with us, or you are against us" was in reference to the principle of how the world will tolerate, or not tolerate, terrorism and those who wreak terror on others. Beyond that, the caterwauls appear to be focused on how we will implement our procedures to deal with it, hopefully not to denounce the principle of resistance to terror. (?)

The 9/11 atrocity was an event virtually nobody in this country had any frame of reference to compare to, yet the Israeli's live with proportionately comparable events almost weekly. Whatever is said about Israel, the United Nations created the country right where it is, and Jewish settlements don't blow up schoolbusses full of children. There was never a Palestine-the-nation, it's just a region of the map.

I served for 3 years in Egypt and Saudi Arabia as a member of the military. The peoples in that part of the world hate us. So completely that there is nothing we could ever do, nothing, that would change that. They hate our wealth, our prosperity, our laws, our culture, our freedom, our ablility to even have this conversation. And virtually all are ruled by dicatatorial monarchies or oligarchies such as Iran, who covet our wealth for themselves while their people are left to exist at a 11th century living standard.

The rule of instinct and self-preservation is the same now as it has been since the dawn of time. When you are threatened, you resort to measures for defence that sometimes exceed conventional means of acceptable behavior. Congress is beating the bushes ;-) looking for blame about who and who may have known in advance of 9/11, particularly the CIA and FBI. These are the very people we are replying on to save us from future attacks, but some still would rather focus on placing blame than firming up our procedural methods of dealing with it. Hopefully, the recent announcements in the press about improvements being made in "Homeland Security" will bear fruit, and make them better equipped to handle this.
Our Constitution exists to protect American citizens, the framers never extended that to foreign nationals. Read your Federalist Papers and know what James Madison, who largely drafted the Constitution, says about it. We have laws that permit people to be arrested on suspicion, including citizens of this country. And legal instruments exist to prevent citizens from being unreasonably detained, which are available to Jose Padilla. For non-citizens, the Hague treaty (Geneva Convention) governs the means of handling prisoners of a conflict. The Guantanamo Bay detainees are defined as prisoners of war; if you have a problem with this, clamor for congress to sh*t or get off the pot and declare it so in a legal sense, which they have made not a squeak about. Because prisoners of war do not have the same rights as do our citizens, period., by international agreement. In any case, we aren't torturing and cutting the throats of our prisoners, as happened to David Pearl.
At the same time, I believe our gorenment is not equipped procedurally to deal with a terrorists, suspected or otherwise, in a legal sense. Our laws and parctices were created when enemies were much more clearly defined; uniformed soldiers, infiltrators, and other enemy combatants who's afiliations and loyalties were easier to discern. Nobody currently being detained is going to be run roughshod over concerning their rights by this country. To do so would be political suicide by our government elected officials, and the press isn't going to turn a blind eye. I think our energies, as citizens, would be best focused on pressuring our government to develop superior legal means of dealing suspected terrorists of any nationality or idealogical stripe, and implement them as soon as possible, so that reasonable rights are assured of current and future prisoners, while the job of protecting America is also aloowed to be successful. I have lots of ideas, but I'm just one guy.

I'm sorry for those who castigate America for not having yet achieved civic and social utopia. We still do a better job that anywhere else in the world... pick a better country. Let us keep working to get there, and not demolish ourselves with recriminations on the way. It's good to criticize, but at what point will you start offering solutions?

That's DANIEL Pearl, Bravo. Just thought I'd point that out. ;P

Okay, I didn't mean the thing about Iraq. I meant that it's just not wise to go and attack them yet.
Besides, we all know what happened last time. It'll happen again. History is bound to repeat itself. No one said America didn't have the right to go and attack. Just find out what really happened first. Then do something about it.

Sorry, you are absolutely right. Daniel Pearl. My apologies. You have made your point with laser-like precision.

Umm, did anything else penetrate to you? Or was that all you got from it?

Damn i am glad i am not the president. if i were i would prolly just throw up my hands and quit. its so obvious that people are so divided about what the reaction should be to IRAQ, 9-11, or the afghans.

sometimes.. u just have to take action and sort out the details as it goes. i am pleased with the swift action the US took post 9-11. to sit around and debate the correct response for months following.. well honestly i feel like the middle east and others see us a BIG JOKE.

i admit retrospect is always 20 20 but so far i think the situation has been handled with patience and somewhat of a system for eliminating the threats to our homes and families.

but again i am the kind of american.. who would give my life in defense of my nation. anyone else out there like that? no one attacks my nation and not expect a massive response. i think its the prolly with americans generally.. the firt to critique are usually the ones who will not pick up a rifle and stand a post... or believe in OUR way of life enough to be willing to make the ultimate sacrafice. don't get me wrong.. i would prolly hide behind a tree or something in combat.. but i am not afraid to stand up for what i believe.

arrogant for me to say that most of the world is wrong and our way of life is correct. i would impose my values on anyone.. because its what i believe. but in america u can say and speak freely without fear of retribution from our government... do the afghans, saudis, and iraq people deserve the same? of course.. no one should be forced to live repressed.

and YES i was serious about leasing out afghanistan to the DISNEY company. at least it could help pay for our war on terriorism.

BTW... contested or not.. GEORGE W is our president.. so hold off the firing squad until 2004 when its time to elect a new president. I applaud him .. his administration.. and thank god AL GORE is not leading the war on terrorism.

War? What war? This is no war... Congress did not declare a war - the President cannot do so on his own. Treating this like a war is a fallacy that will cause the US a great deal of damage in the long run. It will never be 'won' and it will never end.

We are giving up our rights here to combat terrorism here and we may never get them back. And that way the terrorists will win...

Same thing goes for this idea that the world suddenly changed on 9/11 - it did not, the US just got woken up to the real world....

I have a few quibbles with the content of the article, but I really object to the tone. "Stark new measures of repression"? Seems a bit much to me. And comparing the World Trade Center attacks to the Iraqi war, the invasion of Panama, or even Vietnam is not only inaccurate, but hurts these people's cause. Intent matters. The previous US attacks they mention were designed to achieve specific military goals, not to kill a bunch of innocent people. Those who signed this letter are not going to reach anyone who doesn't already feel as they do.

Having said that, I have problems with some of the current administration's policies, especially suspending the rights of Jose Padillo (the "dirty bomber"), and treating Taliban soldiers as criminals instead of prisoners of war (al-Queda operatives, on the other hand, should be treated as criminals).

I support the war against terrorism, in Afghanistan and wherever, but I wish there was more thoughtful criticism and less knee-jerk vitriol.

Hmmm... I'm questioning the validity of this article. I just did a search on Factiva (uber news database, foreign and domestic) and on Google, and could find no other mention of this statement. Perhaps it is a valid article and the authors specifically chose the Guardian and that's why it isn't showing up anywhere else. I just have a sense in despite the corporate media, conspiracy, "the man" controlling the media, and whatever other yadda yadda you can come up with there would at least be mention of this article.

Unless the authors didn't want there to be.

Damn librarians question everything don't we.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

-- Benjamin Franklin
Nov 11 1755, from the Pennsylvania Assembly

good job posting that.

it makes me ache when i see someone characterize such sentiments as anti-american. guess what, critics: the signatories are americans!

18CharlieBravo: You make an excellent point. I wish I knew how an individual like me could offer alternative solutions. I'm sad to say that I don't know how to make a difference in this.

notjustanothertrekkie: Your attitude towards those of us who question the direction of our nation sickens me. Your arrogance and egotistical diatribe that we brain-iacs would be the first ones to turn tail and run is bullsh*t. If our nation's military would accept me, I'd join in a heartbeat. And I proudly support all of my family members who are currently active-duty and in the Afganistan area. Just because I THINK about what our nation is doing doesn't mean I don't believe in my country or its military. Now, when are YOU signing up?

I don't see why the Guardian should like America, it's not a requirement for good journalisim. After all, everything's going to be biased by nature, might as well at least have a diversified diet of biased things.

However, it is fishy that Tony Blair's 2000 Anti-terrorisim bill, a bill that is almost as damaging to civil liberties as the recent American actions, usually gets little press.

Milt,

Resorting to personal attacks....just like a liberal.

Everything I say is a generalization. The vast majority of profs I had in college were Liberal and never made it (nor could make it) in business or corporate America. The one or two retired executives who became educators had enough personal wealth to not give a damn what the underachievers (read liberal professors) said. Those profs made the biggest impression on my life and formed my political views.

You'll find that actors, educators, artists and theologists rarely make money or survive in the business world. We are too damn right-wing, logical and have too much common sense for them to function properly.

*applauds EQ's statement*

my sentiments, exactly.

It would be really nice if the knee-jerkers here would take the time to READ that letter fully and make some effort to understand what it says. I would hate to think that we're all so trained by sound bites that we can't take the time to THINK about what's been read, rather than react blindly.

The one thing I noticed about the signatories was that they do NOT all lean to the left. The list seems to cover a wide spectrum of political beliefs and philosophical thought.

Look kiddies, the surest way to exercise the rights and freedoms you have in this country (the US) is to use your brain, not your gonads to do your thinking. Citizenship isn't about threatenin' to whup ass when you think somebody is dissin' your country. It's about paying attention to what's going on around you, what's being done in your name, and acting accordingly as a citizen of a free country.

The problem with "America, love or leave it" is that it isn't semantically much different from "Watch what you say" or "If you question your government you're treasonous." If this is government, of, by and for the people, then it's our obligation to act accordingly. Like it or not, stuff is being done in your name -- and the minute it's okay to incarcerate somebody because of their beliefs, then you could be the next one in the star chamber.

Can someone answer me some questions please.

Why does America continually ignore the reasons behind 9/11?
When did it become an acceptable response to blow the crud out of anyone who may or may not dislike America?
When did Bush become a hero instead of the User,gun-toting savage he used to be?
When did all Islamics become terrorists?
Why is America allowed to have the firepower to annihilate the planet 20 times over, while all other countries are treated as rogue states?
Why? Why? Why?
Terrorism cannot be fought with armies, and world issues cannot be simplified into good vs evil, us vs them.
Its just not that easy.
9/11 was sickening, vile. But so was the armed response. Thousands of innocents died at the World Trade Centre, thousands of innocents died when Afghanistan was bombed. Many of the survivors will now hate America, those who lost family, sons, wives, husbands, fathers. These people won't care...all they will know is that American soldiers destroyed their lives for a crime that someone else commited.
If we continue to reach for a gun, instead of thinking things through...we might as well not have bothered evolving at all. Theres more to being the good guys than deciding who is evil and then killing them.
Bin Laden is still out there. Al Quaeda is still out there.
Armies cannot fight terrorists

AvidReader

HAHAHAHAHA avidreader.... YEP my post was definitely pointed directly at you and your lack of patriotism. NOT!

Well i am in the army reserve.. so i don't think its for me to run out and sign up.. and simply i am expressing my opinion ..... obviously i hit home with you.. otherwise u would not have taken the post so personal.

"Your arrogance and egotistical diatribe that we brain-iacs would be the first ones to turn tail and run is bullsh*t." hmmmm i don't think i am gonna get this personal with you.. except to say you are twice as reactive as i am. are you sure u are educated? simply BLASTING me personally for expressing my opinions.

simply i support what is being done.. i am not afraid to be called into combat to defend my nation.. and i have taken a stand on what i believe. wrong or not.. at least i made a decision.

Can someone answer me some questions please.

Why does America continually ignore the reasons behind 9/11?
When did it become an acceptable response to blow the crud out of anyone who may or may not dislike America?
When did Bush become a hero instead of the User,gun-toting savage he used to be?
When did all Islamics become terrorists?
Why is America allowed to have the firepower to annihilate the planet 20 times over, while all other countries are treated as rogue states?
Why? Why? Why?
Terrorism cannot be fought with armies, and world issues cannot be simplified into good vs evil, us vs them.
Its just not that easy.
9/11 was sickening, vile. But so was the armed response. Thousands of innocents died at the World Trade Centre, thousands of innocents died when Afghanistan was bombed. Many of the survivors will now hate America, those who lost family, sons, wives, husbands, fathers. These people won't care...all they will know is that American soldiers destroyed their lives for a crime that someone else commited.
If we continue to reach for a gun, instead of thinking things through...we might as well not have bothered evolving at all. Theres more to being the good guys than deciding who is evil and then killing them.
Bin Laden is still out there. Al Quaeda is still out there.
Armies cannot fight terrorists

Agreeing with the statements in this letter does not make someone a "bleeding heart liberal" just as disagreeing with it does not make someone an "arch-conservative."

This is a complex issue, and anyone who thinks this is simply black-or-white, "with us or against us," "support terrorists or mourn the victims" has no place participating in this argument.

When you call names, and label people, you illustrate immediately and quite clearly that I don't need to listen to a word you say.

You know, this *could* be a very informative and important debate.

But the name-calling, knee-jerk, reactionary reiteration of "I'm right!" "No! I'm right!" has completely destroyed any chance of that.

Shame on you, and you know who you are.

Can someone answer me some questions please.

Why does America continually ignore the reasons behind 9/11?
When did it become an acceptable response to blow the crud out of anyone who may or may not dislike America?
When did Bush become a hero instead of the User,gun-toting savage he used to be?
When did all Islamics become terrorists?
Why is America allowed to have the firepower to annihilate the planet 20 times over, while all other countries are treated as rogue states?
Why? Why? Why?
Terrorism cannot be fought with armies, and world issues cannot be simplified into good vs evil, us vs them.
Its just not that easy.
9/11 was sickening, vile. But so was the armed response. Thousands of innocents died at the World Trade Centre, thousands of innocents died when Afghanistan was bombed. Many of the survivors will now hate America, those who lost family, sons, wives, husbands, fathers. These people won't care...all they will know is that American soldiers destroyed their lives for a crime that someone else commited.
If we continue to reach for a gun, instead of thinking things through...we might as well not have bothered evolving at all. Theres more to being the good guys than deciding who is evil and then killing them.
Bin Laden is still out there. Al Quaeda is still out there.
You cannot save innocents by killing more innocents.

"Citizenship isn't about threatenin' to whup ass when you think somebody is dissin' your country."

No one thinks that. Don't make assumptions to justify your views. We didn't immidiatley launch an offensive hours after 9/11. We waited. We planned. We told the Taliban we would not invade as long as they handed over Osama. They still would not cooperate.

I do not see our military action as blind lashing out like Clintion did. We are thinking in a very strategic manner how and who would/can support terrorism and making sure they do not. This process will go on a damn long time from now and is totally neceassary and justified. The US has shown alot of restraint in it's actions since 9/11.

I, and alot of other citizens do not want blind bombing, revenge, and war; but a smart, continual push by the US to seek out and stop terrorists. This is the intelligent and most efficient way.

I do not think it is unamerican to question the government. What I am offended by is the thoughtless, kneejerk reaction to any act of military force as "wrong". If you had made up your mind that the US government is inherently evil and power hungry before an issue is presented, then you will not have a true open, logical mind to decide an issue. That is what offends me about liberals viewpoints.

Oh and please stop quoting 200 year quotes by Benjamin Franklin. That was a completely different time and on a completely different scale. It's cute and I'm sure you feel noble doing it, but please make up your own mind.

Fluffy, we haven't ignored it once. You just misunderstand the reason behind 9/11. You think that evil can be negotiated with, appeased and reasoned with.

Lucky for the world my generation did view the world in such a way.

You have learned nothing from History. The Allied forces destroyed Germany,Italy and Japan during World War II. Less than sixty years later a good percentage of the European Allied/Axis nations have formed voluntarily under one flag. (Okay its only partial but its still a HUGE step.)

Look at Japan and the US and their history.

The world did change after Sept 11th. The US once again turned outward and was ready to begin to do what is needed in order to stop evil from spreading across the world.

If HISTORY is any guide, thats not good for them.

Fluffy, we haven't ignored it once. You just misunderstand the reason behind 9/11. You think that evil can be negotiated with, appeased and reasoned with.

Lucky for the world my generation didn't view the world in such a way.

You have learned nothing from History. The Allied forces destroyed Germany,Italy and Japan during World War II. Less than sixty years later a good percentage of the European Allied/Axis nations have formed voluntarily under one flag. (Okay its only partial but its still a HUGE step.)

Look at Japan and the US and their history.

The world did change after Sept 11th. The US once again turned outward and was ready to begin to do what is needed in order to stop evil from spreading across the world.

If HISTORY is any guide, thats not good for them.

notjustanothertrekkie: You're right. And I owe you an apology. Your post was just the freshest in my mind and I didn't take a moment to breathe deeply and back down. I'd like to say I wasn't taking it personally, I was trying to make a point about generalizations and stereo-types. Unfortunately, I unwittingly made one (or a few) myself. And as much as I'd like to, I'm not going to respond to the "are you sure u are educated" comment. :) And I don't want to forget -- good on you for being a member of the army reserve. Seriously, you ARE performing an extremely important service to the country.

wil is right that this could be an informative and important debate. Unfortunately, such important discussions are difficult to keep low-key and completely civil when it's obvious that so many people feel so strongly. I'm glad that we're still here discussing, though.

I concede the point that relations in Europe have changed for the better, but I feel that this is in spite of, not due to, the Second World War.
Believe me, I know my history.
My country fighting Nazi's years before America "turned outward". As I recall, America stood still until it was directly attacked at Pearl Harbour.
Oh, and on the subject of history, remeber the IRA, the Irish troubles? The ones that have now stopped while people who were trying to kill each other 2 years ago are now actually sitting down and trying, slowly and painfully, to deal with the problem without death? I may not like some of the things that my government has done in order to facilitate this, but I'm very happy that no more bombs are being set, and no more incidents like the Omah bombing are happening. Ireland is far from fixed, there are still huge problems, but they aint killing each other, or us. Their talking.

"Why does America continually ignore the reasons behind 9/11?"

Everyone has their own opinion about why 9/11 happened. You seem to be in the camp that assumes people are fed up with america being an "oppressor" and supporter of Palestine. Many of us do realize though that the main reason is that the Arab world and the US have competely different ideaologies and this is more than enough reason for them to hate us. We are a successful, secular nation. I do not think that arabs are "jealous" of exactly what we have, but the fact that we are a secular nation that is more successful than theirs is enough to make them realize that a society based on ancient religious laws and adverse to change is just not cutting it. Their system does not work no matter how righteous they feel. They are frustrated and lashing out because of this.

A simple difference in ideologies is more than enough to provoke war and violence. Hell, we spent 50 years locked in a cold war with russia because of our ideological differences, nothing more. We were ready to nuke each other over ideas, not because amercica had done anyting to the USSR.

"When did it become an acceptable response to blow the crud out of anyone who may or may not dislike America?"

Hmm we haven't nuked france, have we? :) There are plenty of countries that don't like america. It just so happens that a country that doesn't like america is more inclined to shelter terrorists. Simple. Not all anti-american nations harbor terrorists, but all nations that harbor terrorists are anti-american.

"When did Bush become a hero instead of the User,gun-toting savage he used to be?"

That's your opinion. Don't expect people to answer a question based on your views of one man.

"When did all Islamics become terrorists?"

Please. No one thinks this so stop being so paranoid. The only reason I might be disappointed in muslims as a whole is because they seem to lack any desire to iniate or support non-violent actions to solve their problems. Not questioning your countrymen that cause terror is something to be concerned about.

"Why is America allowed to have the firepower to annihilate the planet 20 times over, while all other countries are treated as rogue states?"

Because we are a democratic nation with seperation of church and state and a system of checks and balances. Other countries are run by dictators and are controlled by centuries old religious law. Pretty simple to understand, eh?

"Why? Why? Why?
Terrorism cannot be fought with armies, and world issues cannot be simplified into good vs evil, us vs them."

They can be prevented from acting by intelligence and force though. If you can come up with some magical solution that avoids the need for force, I welcome it.

"Its just not that easy.
9/11 was sickening, vile. But so was the armed response. Thousands of innocents died at the World Trade Centre, thousands of innocents died when Afghanistan was bombed. Many of the survivors will now hate America, those who lost family, sons, wives, husbands, fathers. These people won't care...all they will know is that American soldiers destroyed their lives for a crime that someone else commited.
If we continue to reach for a gun, instead of thinking things through...we might as well not have bothered evolving at all. Theres more to being the good guys than deciding who is evil and then killing them.
Bin Laden is still out there. Al Quaeda is still out there.
You cannot save innocents by killing more innocents."

Innocents will die in any war, it's as simple as that. I do not have a casual attitude towards death, but I do know the difference between unintentional killing and intentional mass murder. No one is saying that killing innocents is a way of stopping terrorism. Seeking out and killing terrorists is a way of stopping terrorism.

Okay, it basically boils down to this...question the government you're unpatriotic, you don't love freedom. follow the government blindly and you basically have given up on patriotism and freedom. what ever happened to rationality.

"Okay, it basically boils down to this...question the government you're unpatriotic, you don't love freedom. follow the government blindly and you basically have given up on patriotism and freedom. what ever happened to rationality."

Like I said before, few people are blindly following government. If you make this assumption simply because someone supports the war on terror, you are assuming you know the reasons, behind one's actions, which is irrational since you can not know everyone.

Questioning the goverment is not unamerican. I do not question the patriotism of anyone because of their views. I just question how open-minded someone is being when they think any military force at all is an unjustified act of bullying and aggression. I can't see how many options we have in reacting to an attack on our soil. Can you tell me some detailed alternatives to militrary action?

Wil,

Thanks for posting this.

You've gotten a lot of shit for it, though, and I think it rather unfair. America is built upon the option of having one's own say and political beliefs, and, more importantly, to not be persecuted for them.

A group of people (finally) gets pissed off enough at the States to do something about it, and America freaks out. With all the hypocrisy our government shovels, with all the bullshit they've done, and you people are surprised we were "attacked"? I'm surprised it took so damned long.

It doesn't boil down to that for everyone. I wish people would stop lumping everyone into one of two categories.

Oh yes you are going to get my 2 cents on this one whether you asked for it or not! :)
The events of 9-11 where tragic and inexcusable!
Actions had to be taken. However Bush did not take the proper courses of action. He knew this was coming and allowed it because it gave him an excuse to unleash his Testosterone of the rest of the world. There were much better ways to battle terrorism without killing all of the innocents that we have. The children and people that are killed by american fire are no less significant or important than our own! And after all that we have done thus far what have we accomplished? Not a whole hell of alot! Yes terrorism needs to be stopped but Bush did not go about it the right way!

At the moment some people are knee jerking in response to the right of these people to freely and openly give their opinion. Sadly, it's an all too real fact that such rights can be eroded and negated in the name of national defence.
The point is *not* whether or not they may be right, imho; the point is that, at the moment, they are able to oppose and give voice to dissention without harm to their person. Having already read that the FBI are making further intrusions into the private lives of individuals by reading private emails shows that our individual freedoms are already at stake.
I may not agree whole heartedly with the full content of the statement in the Gaurdian; however I would defend their right to be able to say and express it. It may not be too far into the future that such antagonistic views against our governments will not be allowed. Should that happen we shall fall victim to our own fears and that much closer to those regimes in Afghanistan that we abhorr and fight against.Dictatorship is the same whether wrapped in religious fervour or the bows and ribbons of national defence. Neither bodes well for the future.

Anne -

I just want to clarify something. From reading your posts, it sounds as though you believe the attacks were justified? Please tell me I took your post the wrong way.

Liberal rhetoric. -=PLOINK=- These same lame-brains will be belly aching when they're paying $5/gallon for gas in 5 years because they wanted to keep the Tundra Tortoises in Alaska from being disturbed by drilling rigs... Oh, they're all rich it appears.

"There were much better ways to battle terrorism without killing all of the innocents that we have"

Please tell me what your ideal would be in responding to the terrorist attacks of 9/11. We tried 5 weeks of diplomacy before we took any military action, remember. In my opinion, military action was necessary, and while it is sad that innocent people die in wars, it is not enough reason to stop all military action in seekign justice.

Just my .02 on the letter:

I've noticed a trend, particularly among leftist intellectuals, to equate anything resembling a struggle to historical struggles much more sweeping in scope. Unfortunately, this hyperbole is not only disengenuous, it's insulting. Example?

Writing a letter to a foreign publication that makes no bones about its political stance and is guaranteed sympathetic is in NO WAY the equivalent of working for the Underground Railroad, where Quakers and others risked their lives for their principles. For the writers to even put themselves in the same class as those people insults their memory, and makes the signees seem ridiculous. Perhaps that's the real reason we haven't seen the letter here? They aren't afraid that publishing this letter in the US will affect their lives or livelihoods, they're afraid of ridicule and challenge. And it's a hell of a lot harder to maintain the veneer of moral and intellectual superiority when people are laughing their asses off at you.

America can and has learned from history. If we hadn't, every Arab or Muslim in the US would be in internment camps right now, the middle east would be a parking lot, and we'd all be enjoying free oil.

If I believe that the measures taken against terrorism begin to infringe on my rights more than is necessary, I'll be right out there trying to change it. I'm not convinced of it right now, however, and a bunch of folks screaming about how the sky is falling aren't going to change my mind.

I guess I'm a throwback, but I actually have faith in this country to do the right thing most of the time. I'll wait and see.

Thanks Dale. I think what people seem to be forgetting or choosing not to acknowledge is that we didn't invade Afghanistan 9/12. We did warn the Taliban to hand over Bin Laden. We gave them plenty of time to do so, and they didn't. Try and remember that.

I want to make a quick observation.

It seems many of the more left leaning wheatonfans here keep bringing up the issue of how they think there is an "us vs. them" attitude in the country and that they are getting flak for questioning the government. No one here seems to be calling you unamerican or taking issue with the fact that you hold these views, so could you please focus on the issue at hand, the issue being whether the article in the guardian has any credibility, and if the war on terrorism is justfied or not?

Bringing up the "us vs. them" issue again and again without provocation is little more than a grab for attention and importance.

I'll say it again: No one here is questioning your american values or patriotism because you question the government. Of course that is what makes this country great. We are just questioning the thought process behind your views.

I love the smell of WW.net in the morning.

Wil,

You're right about the kids just name-calling. I want you to keep something in mind, though. Even though many people didn't post a response to this article, you're helping them to think about the issue which, in my humble opinion, is reason enough to post it. Heck even the flamers are "thinking" about it, ya know?

I'll simply say, "thanks".

Posted by NephraTari at June 14, 2002 01:05 PM PUT YOUR NAME ON A BALLOT AND RUN FOR OFFICE.

i am the first to step and defend george w. who cares if i like the man or not.. he has the hardest jobs in the world.. and i doubt very much his testerone has anything to do with the american response to 9-11. from the election to china.. to the recession to 9-11 to the conflict in afghanistain... i think he has handled himself alot better than most.. within this first year in office.

literally the man has tried to inspire and raise the spirits and patriotism of americans...... with his speeches and comments. i applaude him for speaking out.. and certainly attempting to bring the american people together for a change.

i guess its pretty easy to look at the presidents decisions and say.. OH WOW, i would have done this this and this.. versus how he did it. but unfortunately he is privy to information we are not. i sure if we watched out lives on TV... there are bounds of things we could have done differently. if u are so opposed to how he runs the country.. maybe u can write to him for a red phone in yer house.. so he can call you for advice before he makes a decision. better yet.. he will not make a decision until all 260 million americans have agreed on a course of action. they we can vote on it.. except in florida.. cause we floridians don't know how to use the butterfly ballot.

i just think.... unless u are willing to make a significant contribution to a solution in government........ burning of effage of george w on this board... does no one any good.

First, some one asked when has the US ever deliberately targeted large groups of civilians in either Iraq or Panama. Well, deliberately targeted civilians in those places, I'm not sure. But I do know that the US has done such a thing. Cambodia. Yep, we bombed the fuck out of them, on purpose, tho they weren't doing anything wrong when we did it. They were peaceful. This demonstrates that our gov't does do horrible things and it is responsible for tragedy. Second, anyone who says teachers can't make it in the real world is saying something very ignorant & very untrue. One can't truly teach w/o being able to "do". Teaching is a noble profession. I have known people in educational institution who have no business calling themselves teachers, but most are fantastic. Even those whose opinions regarding politics, religion & other issues I disagree w/. And all of them, liberal & conservative, had more common sense than most other people I've encountered in my life -on the net or actually in the real world. To assume some one who has liberal tendancies has no common sense is also an ignorant thing to say. Common sense is not unique to conservatives -and neither would be personally attacking an individual. In fact, except for those conservative professors & a very few others, most conservatives I've know have seriously lacked in common sense & were more prone to personal attacks than anyone else I've known. Yet I'm aware those traits aren't necessarily found in all conservatives. Avidreader, I love that quote! "For the US to maintain its moral authority in the fight against terrorism, its action must be implemented in accordance w/ core American legal & social values". Karl, I'm not doubting you, I just want to know where you learned the US is the only country convicted in world court of State Terrorism, I'd like to learn more about this. Regarding Padilla. Is there more evidence against him? So far the stuff I read is kind of weak & some of it circumstantial. My gut feeling says he was definately doing something wrong. But I want justice, not vengence. I want to see him tried in accordance w/ the law. That way people who have issue w/ his likely conviction have less to stand on. Also, if we go bending the rules to appease our sense of vengence, if we act out irrationally and brutally, we can't claim that moral authority. Janis Cortese was right when she said feminists (and others) were trying to get the attention of people in power for a long time in regard to the Taliban. I talked about it when some people I know tried to discuss current events. They had no ida what I was talking about (pre 9/11 & now they think they are experts on the subject). It is disheartening that the US -so powerful & capable, wasn't motivated to do something until it was us who was attacked. Not that I'm sure what we could have done. And not that I think it should have been us alone. One could easily argue we are the strongest & most capable but there are other countries that are strong & enjoy better lives than others in the world. Hence we all could have done something before things escalated to this point. Yep, we are strong & powerful & capable of a lot. We do enjoy many freedoms, rights, priviledges, and excesses. I dont' want to completely Americanize the whole world, not everyone wants an SUV, a McDonalds on every corner, and everything we have. But everyone deserves good food, shelter, basic clothing, freedom of speech, & a feeling of safety. As a strong & powerful nation, we should help others, all others who doon't have these things to get them & keep them. Sometimes we will have to use force against certain people/factions/governments who abuse others. But we need to be careful w/ how much force (we don't want to sink to their level). And make sure we get the right people. Again, I say other nations that also have some power & enjoy freedoms should work w/ us. Or we w/ them, however you want to say it, as long as it gets done. There should be some distinctions made. The USA does good. Well, individuals & organizations based in the USA does good. Sometimes our gov't does, too -either out of genuine goodness or b/c it feels politically threatened or a bit of each. And the USA does bad, individuals, organizations, and the gov't. The same can be said of any nation or group of ethnic peoples who have ever held power in the history of civilization. As far as 9/11 is concerned. What I want to do is goet every individual responsible for that & personally bludgeon them to death. But then I'd be like them. And I'm not. I value justice over vengence. Sometimes the line seperating the 2 is faint. But it is important to make that distinction. I supported going into Afghanistan and physically removing the Taliban, destroying their regime. I wanted them to pay for their crimes and not just the ones against America. I do think our leaders are overzelous. Our job should not be to crush Islamics. Not all of them are fundamentalists hell bent on killing Americans either b/c they want to stifle freedom or b/c they are jealous. Military action was necessary. But I am afraid of going too far. Our leaders are intersted in vengence, not justice. They stopped working towards guaranteeing our safety and now are using our men & women in the military (whom I respect tremendously) to bully the rest of the world. It is not just an abuse on the rest of the world but on our military also. Bush is scary! "You are either w/ us or against us!" Even those w/ us are scared! And scaring people in to submission or to behave the way we want doesn't work. Maybe for a little while but eventually scare people become pissed-off people. And this will all happen again. Also, our rights as Americans, our way of life is being threatened, not just by that "axis of evil" but by the current administration. "There ought to be limits to freedom" -George W. Bush, May 21, 1999. That man is now our president! Iraq, yeah, I wanna bludgeon Saddam, too. But we gotta be careful. We gotta be sure of every little thing we do. WE could piss off others who are powerful enough to hurt us (not just w/ terrorist activities, other methods, too). We don't want to sink to the level of those we abhore, either. We have to make sure we do it right to ensure the safety of all people and to make sure we dont' get into trouble ourselves (there is an international court of justice & it has punished us before). Wrapping it up now. Matrix, you've made some good points. Al Gore was in Vietnam, sure as a journalist, but he was there & saw people killing & dying. Bush went AWOL in training camp for the Reserves. (Yep, personal attack, I'm big enough to admit that & no, I don't think Gore is great, just not as scary as Bush). I critique this administration but I will also take up a gun & fight & die for it, if necessary. Fluffy, you also make good points. Nearly everyone I talk to face to face who supports the unofficial war on terrorism quotes "either w/ us or against us" and are ignorant of many facts, even those that could help to prove their own damn points! I also heard something a PURPLE HEART reciepient (sp?) once said -during Vietnam. He said it is patriotic to question our government. It is unpatriotic to blindly support our leaders. This is a man who fought in a war. This is a man who, IMO, is wise. And, finally, I will quote something I saw on the 'net somewhere: I don't have to like [George W.] Bush to LOVE America!

Wil, i appreciate your opinion, and your right to express it. However, without a government to protect us from terrorist nations, you won't be able to host your videogame tv shows. These people want to END us and our way of life. Thousands of Americans are dead, and people are more concerned for the rights of the terrorists! I can't understand this. Be grateful you live in a country that allows you to express differing views from the government, i am...

Wil,

Your disregard for seriousness and impact of the attacks on 9/11 is sickening. I hope you never have to hear that your wife was in a building that was blown up and that her heart was picked up off the ground by a rescue worker like it was a rotting apple on the sidewalk. Or that you ever have to ask Nolan and Ryan to swab the inside of their mouths so they can identify their mother's remains. Both of these acts have taken place thousands of time in NYC over the past 9 months and it will go on for a long time. The best we can do work hard and try to prevent this from happening again. Please come to NYC and look at the hole of destruction yourself. You will be humbled.

I'm not so much concerned with the rights of a terrorist (whom I believe is most likely guilty of planning to harm Americans) as I am with how those infringements may soon affect MY rights. That's vital connection to make in this debate.

I'm not arguing the need for response, we just need to find that line between response/defense and revenge. It's absurd to think that our government would not respond to what has happened. My concern is that with all the precedents that have been set (holding Padilla for so long, the PATRIOT act, etc.), MY rights as an American citizen are becoming narrower and narrower. I think that's why this conversation started, isn't it?

Another thing that concerns me is that there seems to be many more people that want to criticize and nitpick what our goverment is doing, instead of working to come up with solutions of how to deal with terrorism and balance it with their views on civil rights.

Don't get me wrong, critics of our government are good, it's just the proportion of them compared to people actually offering solutions that is way out of whack.

"Why does America continually ignore the reasons behind 9/11?"
Please list the reasons. We need to know. Please tell us.

"When did it become an acceptable response to blow the crud out of anyone who may or may not dislike America?"
Disliking America is not the reason. The killing of innocent Americans is.

"When did Bush become a hero instead of the User,gun-toting savage he used to be?"
When he took action. Please give us specific alternatives. We need alternatives.

"When did all Islamics become terrorists?"
They haven't.

"Why is America allowed to have the firepower to annihilate the planet 20 times over,..."
America is not "allowed", we asked or need the approval of no one. We need to ask no one to begin to stop it. We hold that power ourselves. We only need to use it. (we get the opportunity to "use it" every 4 years. Why do less than 1 in 4 Americans use it? VOTE!!!)

"... while all other countries are treated as rogue states?"
All countries are not.

"Why? Why? Why?
Terrorism cannot be fought with armies, and world issues cannot be simplified into good vs evil, us vs them."
Please tell us how to fight them. Please give us specific alternatives.

"Its just not that easy.
9/11 was sickening, vile."
Agreed

"..But so was the armed response."
What should have been done? Please give us specific alternatives.

"Thousands of innocents died at the World Trade Centre,.."
Agreed

"... thousands of innocents died when Afghanistan was bombed."
...so did many whose life’s work was to kill innocents.

"Many of the survivors will now hate America, those who lost family, sons, wives, husbands, fathers. These people won't care...all they will know is that American soldiers destroyed their lives for a crime that someone else commited."
Many hated America long before. Many have found a new respect for America. They can now speak without fear of repression. They can now go to school. They can now begin to think for themselves. Many look to and thank America for helping them once again be free and rule themselves. Believe it or not, that is true. Speak to anyone who has gone to Afghanistan to rebuild the infrastructure destroyed by the old regime. You'd be surprised to hear the reaction of the people of Afghanistan to Americans.

"If we continue to reach for a gun, instead of thinking things through...we might as well not have bothered evolving at all."
If we do not take steps to protect ourselves, we will surely fall. Once again, Please give us specific alternatives. I am willing to listen anytime.

"Theres more to being the good guys than deciding who is evil and then killing them."
Agreed

"Bin Laden is still out there. Al Quaeda is still out there.
Armies cannot fight terrorists""
Then how can we fight terrorists? Please tell us how to fight them.

Many like to tell us what we do wrong.
None have been able to tell us “The Right Way”.

Can you tell us the right way, Fluffy? Can anyone?

sarcastic cheese:

you asked a very complicated question that i won't bother answering on wil's comment system.

and besides, i'm sick of hearing/discussing about this '9-11' bullshit.

i simply wanted to acknowledge wil's boldness for supporting the article.

Ok, I'm back but I'll try to keep this short. One, I actually do know people who follow the gov't blindly. Some have even told me all they need is Bush's word. I also know people who think all Islamics are terrorists or terrorists in training. One even advocated killing all Islamics, just in case! (Yeah, one lone freak, but that there is even one is scary.) Also there is no justification for why we have weapons of mass destruction. No nation should have these! (Not that I think that just b/c we have them we should let others their share, but lets be honest about the hypocrisy.) And finally, people have personally attacked me (not here, but in face to face conversations) of being unpatriotic & stupid b/c of my views & cautions. Just felt the need to clarify that.

Please, lets be clear on this. NO-ONE is more concerned with the rights of the terrorists than with the rights of innocents. What we are concerned about is that OUR rights, to freedom of speech, expression, belief, the whole shebang, are being curtailed, sweepingly, and we are unhappy because there will be nothing in place to protect our rights. If the American Government declares a person an "enemy combatant", then that person can be held without trial, no appeals, nothing. In Britian, the MPs are about to vote for a law which will allow unprecedented surveillence into our personal lives, one which will prevent us from appealing against its use, the only recourse for a complainant being a secret Tribunal, which is not answerable to the rest of our justice system.
That scares me.
The systems that are being put in place tp prevent terrorists are putting everyone under suspicion. THats what we are worried about. Because a corrupt agency, or Government could use those systems to do whatever they wished, arrest whoever they wished, and imprison them without public trial.
I remeber a book called Orbital Decay. About a bunch of astronauts who discovered that the space-station they were building was actually a special NSA listening device, which would effectivly remove all liberty and privacy. They destroyed the station, believing that personal freedoms had cost too much to gain, just to give them away.

"I'm not arguing the need for response, we just need to find that line between response/defense and revenge."

I think we have done a pretty damn good job finding it. We didn't go in and nuke everyone. A month of diplomacy followed by a strategic invasion is a pretty good walk on that fine line.

I too am fascinated by the precedent set by the acts being taken now in terms of holding people for questioning, etc. However, I am starting to see that a slightly-less-than-ideal respect for a certain person's civil rights in face of evidence is necessary. If the lives of thousands are on the line, and we are not fighting a visible or obvious enemy, our hand is forced into taking a less than noble path in finding and rooting out these terrorists. The big question though is how many people are affected by this.

Welcome to the end of idealism.

Anne -

To me, it's not a complicated question, but I respect your not wanting to discuss it here. I have a feeling such a discussion would only send the flames higher.

But, 9/11 was not bullshit.

Bomb where we *think* he could be hiding, then send food and medical supplies to those innocent we knowingly endangered. Forget that we have done things on the same level of 9 11, call it god's war, make people of international birth feel they should hide their accent...

president bush has said repeatedly that his motivation behind this "war" is the pursuit of justice. almost 3000 americans were killed on 9/11. what do you expect the leader of the most powerful country in the world to do? it's not about revenge. there may be a fine line; but who are we to claim to know what's in his heart?

it's sad that so many people not directly involved in the terrorist attacks have been forced to suffer because of the american response; but from the president's perspective, there's nothing else he can do.

the fact of the matter is, no one is "innocent." i find it amusing to read, repeatedly, in the guardian article that the signers "believe" certain things. what basis do they have for these beliefs? it's just what they "feel."

Just to clarify something:

1. This was not an article written by the Guardian.
2. This was not an article written by UK citizens.
3. This was not an article, period.

This was:

A letter written by a collection of artists, scholars, and activists who wished to express an opinion and bring awareness to an issue they felt strongly about.

Something they are freely allowed to do in this country. (At least for the moment.)(Sorry. That was a bit bitchy, wasn't it? :)

Here's the main group behind this letter:
http://www.artistsnetwork.org/

Here's the website for the organizers of the letter:
http://www.notinourname.net/

Here's a BBC article on this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/entertainment/arts/newsid_2044000/2044912.stm

And Wil, thank you very much for posting this, I hadn't heard about it.

(And, this is totally personal, but as a social worker picking up the pieces of the raped, abused, and battered men, women and children in the country: I most fervently wish we had MORE teachers, scholars, artists and theologians. Maybe we'd have less prisons, poverty, and violence. )

"One, I actually do know people who follow the gov't blindly. Some have even told me all they need is Bush's word. I also know people who think all Islamics are terrorists or terrorists in training. One even advocated killing all Islamics, just in case! (Yeah, one lone freak, but that there is even one is scary.)"

Congratulations, you know a few nuts. But most people do have good reason for supporting military action against terrorists who are more than happy to kill most of us if they had the chance. The difference between us is that I give people a chance to explain their motivations and thoughts behind their beliefs, and you are making broad, ignorant assumptions about people's motivations and stating them as fact.

"Also there is no justification for why we have weapons of mass destruction. No nation should have these!"

Sorry. They are the ultimate deterrent system. Plus no matter what happens, rogue and unstable nations will always either have them or will be working towards building them. So if they have them we must have them too. What would you like to do? Invade Pakistan and take away their nukes? That wouldn't go over too well unless your are wearing 60000 SPF sunblock.

"I most fervently wish we had MORE teachers, scholars, artists and theologians. Maybe we'd have less prisons, poverty, and violence."

I think that's a big issue people are taking with this letter. It is written by people whose beliefs are nothing more than theory. Intellectuals always seem to lack a very important detail in finding worthy solutions: Experience in what they are talking about. The most efficient solutions and ideas will come from people right in the middle of it all, not from some overly-idealistic academics who put their ideals above the real world.

Don't lose sight of the main point of this letter, it is not Anti-American;this letter points out that the Bush administration is turning what America stands for upside down. It kind of makes Bush anti-american.

America is supposed to about freedom; freedom to live, freedom to speak, and ensuring equality under the law.

One thing that scares me about all this is that one might draw something of a parallel between what the two sides of this debate think of each other and what the two sides of this war/conflict think of each other. I certainly don't mean to suggest that anyone involved in this discussion is about to get violent; however, I think some people have tried hard to discount each other and gotten pretty mean about it. There seems to be a sentiment of "It doesn't matter what you think because you're a bleeding heart liberal and your views are unappreciative of the freedoms you enjoy." vs. "It doesn't matter what you think because you're thinking with your gonads and your reaction is knee-jerk patriotism".

Admittedly, it's not the exactly same thing, but in many places in the world people believe that it doesn't matter what Americans think because we are godless, corrupt, evil, immoral and will trample to dust anyone who stands in the way of our narrow interests. Where as we believe it doesn't matter what violent Muslim extremists think because they are brainwashed, irrational fanatics who have dedicated their very lives to our destruction. This thinking and the mutual demonization that results divides the sides so completely that there is no chance for meaningful communication. Without meaningful communication there is no way to resolve conflict.

I don't have all the answers, and I'm just as guilty as the next person when it comes to discounting other people's opinions. I do try to remind myself that it does matter what people think no matter who they are or what they believe. They are a person just as entitled to speak as I am. So I'd encourage all involved in this discussion to focus on the ideas and views being presented rather than potential ways to dismiss, discount and demonize the person presenting the opinion. That kind of thinking on a grand scale led to the war we are fighting right now. I believe we are better than that.

There are many issues in this discussion about which I feel very strongly. I can't possible cover them all, so I'll just go for 2:

First, I have to raise the BS flag on this idea of "When did it become a crime to question the government." I've heard this over and over from people on the far left. Well, of course it's not a crime to question the government. In fact, it is a great American tradition. The disdain and ridicule you hear is because of the specific questions you ask and the statements you make, not because you are asking questions and making statements. Imagine if a new government policy suggested that people should be nice to their neighbors, and a vocal minority started ridiculing and questioning the suggestion. That vocal minority would itself endure ridicule and questioning, not because they were questioning the government, but because their opinion was so far out of line with how the GREAT MAJORITY of other Americans felt. Remember that just as a person has a right to express his opinion, so does another person have a right to vocally disagree.

Second, with regard to Padilla, it's my experience that civilian and military justice have different philosophies behind them. Our civilian justice system is based on the concept that it's better to let a guilty person go free than to risk eroding the rights of innocent people. Our system of military justice, on the other hand, sees justice and security as its ultimate goals. If a person is found to be guilty in a military court, they are more likely to be actually punished, regardless of whatever peripheral issues of procedure may be present. So in this case, when the survival of our very country is at stake (yes, I believe it is that serious in the 10-20 year time frame) those who are RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR SECURITY (i.e., nobody who is posting on this board, no matter how eloquent or vehement our opinions may be) have decided that in this time of war it makes sense to go after those who would destroy us as if our survival depended on it, with an eye toward justice and security rather than toward erring on the side of the accused, as our civilian system does. And I've already read that Ben Franklin quote a thousand times since September, so don't bother.

P.S. We're not "bombing Afghanistan." We're fighting a specific group in Afghanistan. People all over Afghanistan have celebrated the vanquishing of the Taliban and the foreign terrorist group know as Al Queda. And if you have proof (or even evidence) that "thousands of innocents have been killed," I sure would like to see it.

"America is supposed to about freedom; freedom to live, freedom to speak, and ensuring equality under the law."

It's easy to be that ideal when it comes to peacetime. But bending the rights of a few people to prevent the deaths of thousands is a fair trade. Bush is not building concentration camps or saying that islam is our enemy. He is not infringing on the rights of huge numbers of people. Alarmism just deadens your credibiliy.

Posted by notjustanothertrekkie at June 14, 2002
*sigh* this is why I rarely post political opinions. What few I do have are very unpopular.
Why? Because I don't nod my head and follow the flock because its what we are supposed to do!

Lovely suggestion hon, but you know they assisinate all the good presidents so I think I will pass on running for office! ;)

I understand the anger that loyalty will spur in a person, which is what I attribut most of your comments too.

I do try to avoid getting into heated debates because I just don't like them..it's too easy for someone to get personal.

My opinion is simply that, and its worth no more than the 2 cents that I valued it at. Take it as you will.

someone asked what should have been done?
My answer, more intelligience an strategic attacks. If we were going to go after those responsible thats fair but we mass bombed areas and killed many people who were not involved.
Our elite know how to take out Osama and his men. Use of covert and very educated attacks would have been wiser than just flying over and dropping and bunch of bombs and and if we hit the bad guys woo hooo if we miss them.. oh well they are just xxxxxx. Politicians use situations like this for their own means. It works well for them. I am not a military strategist but it doesn't take a physicist to figure out that we could have been smarter about this and avoiding killing innocents.

For the last time...the lives of those people are just as precious and important as the lives of our own families! Its time we stopped making excuses for these atrocities and started to demand change!

"For the last time...the lives of those people are just as precious and important as the lives of our own families! Its time we stopped making excuses for these atrocities and started to demand change!"

You're a naive college student, right?

Prior to every world war we have ever fought, the people of the US were isolationists. "It's not our problem. Let them take care of themselves." was the mantra repeated over and over again. Then, when we were directly threatened, we reacted, but by then the enemy had built up so much force that millions of people had to die in order to protect our way of life. This article is bringing the tragic mistakes of the past back to the our future. They say that history repeats itself, well here you are.

I agree that some of the steps that the Bush adminstration have made lately have upset me, and I've made my feelings known. To say that a few stupid ideas should bring about the end to the war we are fighting is insane. All of the things that the Bush adminstration suggests are being weighed by the Supreme Court for constitutionality and if they fail to meet it's high requirements, they will be removed, plain and simple. I don't see "Emperor Bush" ever becoming a possibility.

To end my statement, I would like to say that if we do end the war, totally move out of Europe, Asia, and the Middle East, and cut all ties with Israel, the bombings abroad and in our country will STILL continue. A large number of these people hate us, no matter what we do. Their belief structure makes it impossible for them to live on the same planet as we do, in peace. To think that this will all end if we ignore it is just crazy.

"You're a naive college student, right?"

Sorry no, I am just a compassionate human being.

What saddens me is that you don't why your comment was sooo wrong. :(

First they came for the Communists,and I didn’t stand up, because I wasn’t a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t stand up, because I wasn’t a Jew.

Then they came for the Catholics,and I didn’t stand up, because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to stand up.

Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945

Freedoms are not only for some people. In the US everyone is innocent until proven guilty. To say as one did that they'd consider giving Padilla freedoms if he were innocent...shows complete ignorance of the US justice system.

Padilla is a US CITIZEN. He has ***EVERY*** right all other citizens have. If his rights can be removed at the whim of the government, so can yours. So when the government decides he can be held indefinitely without trial, that means tomorrow the government can decide to hold you indefinitely without trial at its whim.

If this doesn't scare you...it should.

If the government can do this...then all the soldiers who have died in every battle this country has fought has died in vain. For the flag is worth nothing, it is just a symbol. Those soldiers died for our freedoms, not our flag. Remove those freedoms, and they died in vain.

Those who signed that letter are today's Patriots. They're trying to wake up the American people. Our rights are being trampled in the name of fighting terrorism.

Wil,
Shut the fuck up.

IMHO, an act of terrorism, as one that Padilla is being detained for is different than someone who murders someone in the heat of passion. It is an attack on the country, therefore subject to military laws. The government is not taking away his rights on a whim. Our government does not operate this way, and anyone who believes so didn't pay attention in high school government class. Our government isn't perfect, by any stretch of the imagination, and I don't agree with everything that has transpired since 9/11.

And I (meaning me and only me) wouldn't call the authors/signers of this letter Patriots. They are mearly expressing THEIR point of view. Nothing Patriotic about that. The true patriots are those that are off fighting because they feel they are protecting those of us still at home. My boyfriend is a US Marine. I hate that this war is going on because it has kept us apart. And will continue to do so. I have no love for the military. They treat their personnel like machines and have no regard for their well-being. War sucks, for both sides. Innocent people lose their lives. It stirs up emotions in people. People who would normally get along and be friends find themselves arguing the validity of everything. It drives normally sensible, rational people to name-calling just to get their point across.

John, I did like your quote.

Okay, just reading about the first eight comments has given me a headache, so I quit trying, and therefore apologize if this has been said before.

Of course no US media is going to publish this. That would qualify as 'taking a stand on something'.

I could write a book full of the comments that filled my head as I read both the statement and the comments on this page. But I'll narrow it down:
It is pointless to fight a war in which we abandon the very ideals that we are supposedly trying to protect. Period.

Wow - I'm amazed by the discussion here.

Wil is right though - we do need to think about this. Like it or not, the west is not coming under attack because we've always treated the rest of the world so well that they have nothing else do to.

jl asked a bit further up where I got the information re the US and the World Court. Some links are provided below. Do a Google search for ""World Court" "state terrorism" US Nicaragua" and you'll find a bunch of references. Chompsky also references this in his book on September 11th and the reaction to it.

http://www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/feb98herman.htm
7th or 8th paragraph

http://cisw.cla.umn.edu/newsletters/writing_war/state_terrorism.htm

http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/politics/0000123.php
9th paragraph – with interesting point in paragraph two

http://www.zmag.org/nion.htm

As hard as it may be for some people to believe, the "war" that we've entered is not a war that can ever be won. There is no enemy, no "win condition". To call something this vague a "war" is dangerous. To allow our fears to be manipulated so that right wing goverment members can pass restrictive legislation is dangerous.

We have all been told that disent is "evil" now. That we should watch what we say, toe the party line.

That is scary.

The Bush administration doesn't like free thinkers who question. Neither does China.

I'm not suggesting that the US is behaving at all the way that the Chinese goverment does/would in this situation. Just pointing out a minor similarity.

Don't be afraid to question. Think for yourself. Don't give up your freedoms that were hard fought for because you are afraid.

Dale S.:
If quoting 200 year old sources is out of the question, perhaps we should never quote anything. After all, every moment is a different time, there are always different circumstances...
In addition, I don't think these "overly idealistic" intellectuals are putting their ideals over real world issues. I think they've probably put a lot of thought behind this, much more than some of the reactionaries who have posted here. They didn't get to where they are without knowing how to think something through, and this sure doesn't seem like something a bunch of googly-minded hippies would come up with on a rainy afternoon after smokin' some prime hash and eating tofu brownies.

Johr Dermal:
Please don't presume that much of Mr. Wheaton. It's incredibly insensitive, and misinformed. Do the homework - read the archives from September the 11th here.

Heatherly:
Thank you.

Hadez:
Take your own advice.

I've got respect for these people who've taken it upon themselves to write this letter. They're entitled to their opinions, no matter how "un-American" it may seem.

Which reminds me, it bugs the SHIT out of other peoples in the Americas when we use the term "American" to refer to citizens of the USA. It really, REALLY does.

To quote another dead white guy:
A little revolution now and then is a good thing.
- Thomas Jefferson.

To lighten the mood (and provoke some thought):

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2002/06/14/notes061402.DTL&nl=fix

"I most fervently wish we had MORE teachers, scholars, artists and theologians. Maybe we'd have less prisons, poverty, and violence."

...maybe not so much idealistic, Dale, as simply a real alternative to the insanity society has devolved into, if only the human beings in charge of our liberties could be persuaded to agree, and pump money into such a long-term endeavor ...everything now great once had a small (dare I say "idealistic") beginning.

To those who seem angry at Wil for posting this, I think he is very much within his rights as a free, sane human being to agree or disagree with the ideals of government. It seems to me that the weight of the disagreement would fall on the side of our government becoming more dense and unapproachable against its citizens than said government's decision to attack those it has claimed destroyed innocent American lives on 911. If the trail of responsibility for 911 correctly traces back to Al Qaida, then indeed that organization represents the height of hatred for America; if Al Qaida were somehow discovered not to be the source -- in some strangely sick and twisted version of reality -- then they now have a new, much richer hatred for America that they did not have before September 01. Either way, world peace that includes the US does not seem close at hand.

I must admit I am a bit concerned about what this could ultimately turn into from a domestic point of view. Islamic nations loathing the US is not new, but the waits and levels of harassment at airport terminals certainly is. Perhaps George Orwell predicted it a few decades too early...

In describing this "anti-American" post, NotjustanotherTrekkie wrote: "Better yet, allowing a class of children to burn to death in a building, because they were not wearing proper attire."

This was in Saudi Arabia. The country where bin Laden is from, the country where he made his billions and billions (insert Carl Sagan voice here) and where he recruited a ton of militant, fundamental Islamists. And, guess what. They're our ALLIES against the Axis of Evil. We give them money, preferntial treatment and they give us a place to put our base. And, their populace hates us just as much as the Taliban does, but they have a stronger and richer monarchy to support them than the Taliban did (does).

I don't think we should just sit back and not defend ourselves, but I think there is a fine line between defending ourselves and attacking innocent people.

There have been scores more innocent Afghanis killed than there were innocent Americans. This means that our attacks aren't directed clearly. Should we wipe out the infrastructure of Al-Qaeda, yes! But, we haven't done that. They just keep moving from one area to the next. They are in a part of the world where the governments say they support us (so we won't bomb them), but where the populace supports Al-Qaeda.

If we truly want to end this war, we need to find a way to get the populace on our side, or at least less on the side of the fundamental terrorists.

And, if we are going to go about killing all terrorists, then we're going to have attack our allies. Saudi Arabia is just one example. This isn't feasible and shouldn't happen. The best way to change an institution is from the inside. I don't think this should be more of an infiltrative war than a bombing war. Sending in our spies would be a good start. And, it is possible that we are. And, if so we woldn't be hearing about it because we don't want to jeopardize the lives of these individuals.

Scratch. You say that no-one has been bombing Afghanistan, and ask me for proof...
Hmmm, so all that CNN footage of Kabul and Islamabad (large population centres, as I recall) being bombed was faked was it? All the footage on various news programs, (such as BBC News 24, the World Service etc) of Afghani people, wandering aimlessly through the wreckage of what used to be their home, looking for their missing relatives, or the footage and statements of those in field hospitals demanding to know why their children were dead because of American bombs...whas that all faked?
You cannot bomb population centres without hitting innocent people.
The idea that it is acceptable to cause the deaths of large numbers of innocents to kill those who are guilty, is absurd. It makes us no differant than the monsters we fight against. If we fight evil, we must gaurd against becoming evil ourselves. The removal of basic human rights, like the right to fair trial in a justice system that can be held accountable, is just another type of oppression.
To those who took the time to try and answer my questions:- thank you. I have responses, but not the time or space to provide them. Not here, at any rate. Please provide me with an e-mail I can send to if you are really interested.

Patriotism comes in many forms...it doesn't have to be displayed with guns.

The Federalist Papers, written by several of our founding fathers, was a form of Patriotism.

The writing of the Declaration of Independence, and signing it was a form of Patriotism.

In each of these cases, it was people expressing their views. Defending those views with their lives would come later...but they were patriots before they did so.

I am willing to accept that those who are convicted of treason can be treated diferently than those convicted of other crimes....but in a country where one is innocent until proven guilty, I have difficulties denying him due process before he is so convicted.

It means if the government wants to try a citizen in a military court, all they have to do is accuse them of Treason....If they want to hold them indefinitely without trial....all they have to do is accuse them of treason. There is something wrong there.

"Oh, but in this case, he **IS** guilty, we already know that." Doesn't quite work as justification.

Meanwhile, the FBI and CIA are being granted the right to invade our privacy, whether or not they have reason to even suspect us of Treason or any other crime...under the belief that they may catch someone who is guilty of such in the process...

From what I recall, Vietnam wasn't a war, per se, either.

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Addendum: Mix this thought with the previous one about the media as you please, but (headache notwithstanding) I have been reminded, by the reading of these posts, of the old proverb: "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."

Which applies more to this chain of comments than to my view of the people and government of the US. (It's the fools who get things done, after all; but all that seems to be getting done here is to get everyone really hacked off...)

A column by known liberal-leftist William Safire on the new police powers being granted our governmental agencies.

(note to those who don't know: Safire is actually a conservative)

http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyKey=84053&BCCode=WSCS

http://serendipity.magnet.ch/wtc.html

As a citizen of "the rest of the world" and a bleeding heart liberal i feel compelled to throw in my opinion, as is my right and want. Being both a satirist and an avid political activist i feel i must clarify the position of many of my peers here in the UK. Whilst not claiming to speak for the masses i must say that most people do not hate the US. Indeed, during your countries previous administration the US could consider itself one of the most loved countries in the UK and indeed the EU at large.
Our city, Birmingham had the fortune to host a G8 summit at one point in the nineties and was attended by amongst others, President Bill Clinton. Having been a member of the crowds witnesing his arrival and later watching his walkabout on television, I can say that the affection expressed for this man and your country was overwhelming confirming not only our so called "special relationship", but also our kindred belief in the ideals of freedom and equality. I again witnessed this in this years St Patricks day parade, when NYFD firefighters who were present at the WTC bombings attended and marched alongside our own emergency services. The crowds response was overwhelming and the forefighters were cheered and applauded in a way that had not been seen for a long time. It is further evident in the fact that for every ROI flag and Union Jack that was being waved, a Stars and Stripes of the Union flew proudly alongside them.
To make my point, it is not America people dislike, but instead the administration in charge of your country. When GWB came into power the world greeted him nervously, fearing an increasingly unstable world would become more dangerous. His advocation on what was at the time an illegal defense program, his withdrawl from the Kyoto accords and the application of tariffs on steel imports to protect a waning, inefficient industry caused further tension and ultimately, mistrust. Nobody here supports or in any way sympathises with terrorists and our response to the events of september 11th was that of disgust and overwhleming support, but that support was aimed at the people and not the policies of a president who is portrayed here as a man of ltd understanding of the wider world, who policies are created by his subordinates and explained to him using sock puppets followed by him blindly signing whatever is placed in front of him. In short, we dont trust him.
Please understand that it is not the US get shirty with but The Man (to quote some of Wils posts) and i would encourage you to not follow him blindly. If you support his administrations policies whole heartedly then that is fair enough, but please try and be objective from time to time and remember that there are more perspectives to consider than your own countries. do not blindly agree with things for fear of being labelled unpatriotic and exercise the feedom of speech and choice that you so cherish (and constantly remind us of the ass kicking you gave us for them). Sorry if i've upset anyone but us euro-trash limies are difficult to silence.

PS. Wil, thanks again for the use of the T-Shirt.

Wow. I haven't seen a flame war like this since I read Usenet.

Folks, clearly there's a wide range of opinions here. Yours differing from mine doesn't make me right and you wrong, or vice versa.

I'm glad that we in the U.S. have the freedom to post to a public forum like this one and criticize our government, or aspects of it, without fear of prosecution. I hope that we retain that freedom.

What has really galled me about much of the aftermath of the terrorist attacks on 9/11 is the level of public discourse. It's been present in the statements coming from the White House, it's been present in the media coverage, and it's certainly present here. So much of the discussion has just degraded to simplistic descriptions of small aspects of what's going on.

For example, Bush said it was good for Padilla to be detained because he was a "bad guy." It's not that I necessarily think he shouldn't be detained. It's just that saying it's because he's a "bad guy," as though this were all as simple as an episode of _Gunsmoke_, belies the complexity of the issue of detaining a U.S. citizen for an indefinite period of time with no formal charges based on evidence that he was planning to commit an act of destruction. One point on which I agree with the authors of the Guardian letter is that the administration "put out a simplistic script of 'good v evil.'" "This Padilla is a bad guy" is a part of that sort of script. That doesn't mean he's a good guy. It just means that we're not talking about the whole picture.

To me, the fact that our public discussion doesn't seem to address the complexity much means that we're not really very well informed. And while academics like some of the signers of the Guardian letter do work and live in a pretty rarefied world, they certainly have information to contribute to public discourse. That doesn't mean everyone has to agree with them---and God help us if it did---that would be no better than everyone having to agree with the administration. We're not in either of those positions, and like I said, I'm glad for that.

I just wish that instead of the flaming, we could be talking about the real issues that the letter raises: How far should the U.S. government curtail the personal freedoms of U.S. citizens as it seeks to address the terrorist threats to our country? If you feel that freedoms have been curtailed too far, how might you productively address that? Are our legal system and our justice system adequately equipped to handle domestic terrorists?

Saying that terrorists are bad people who want to hurt us, so we should make sure they can't may well be true. But it isn't the whole picture.

I don't see that there's a simple answer here. Thanks to those addressing the issues instead of flaming others.

Quoting EnglishBen: To make my point, it is not America people dislike, but instead the administration in charge of your country.

The reason why we might have a hard time with this is because the people who demolished the WTC didn't make such neat distinctions. Sorry, but the people who do things like this hate Americans. All Americans, whether they voted for that chimp-faced poser in the White House or not. (I can imagine you all sitting there with your mental clutches out wondering which side I'm on right now. Hold on -- hates the Taleban and supports the war, but hates Bush? Does ... not ... compute!)

Do you think the 19 hijackers realized that there were people in those towers were who Muslims? Do you think they gave a shit that a scousin of a Muslim-raised friend of mine was in Trade Two and barely got out with his life? Supposedly, devout Muslims aren't supposed to destroy mosques; well, there were mosques in those towers so that the Muslims who worked there could do their devotional duties -- you think they cared about that? Do you think they gave a shit that many people in those towers (and many Americans in general) do think that the Palestinians are getting a raw deal and deserve a homeland, too? Do you think that they would make a distinction between an environmentally conscious member of Amnesty International walking through the parking garage of the WTC and a foamy-mouthed right-wing freak?

The terrorists made no such distinctions. I find it amusing that you are making them now. So you don't hate all Americans, just the system. Well, join the club -- many AMERICANS feel the same way. Many Americans in the WTC and the FDNY probably felt the same way. Didn't keep them from getting burnt alive and crushed to death. Be reasonable.

Quoting Cinnamon: There have been scores more innocent Afghanis killed than there were innocent Americans.

Yeah, there were scores of Afghanis killed. By the Taleban, who have already slaughtered more of their own people than we could ever manage to achieve.

Thanks for sharing that with us Wil

It is really important that people are aware of what is being done in their name and not to be blinded by jingoistic sentiments weather they come from government or the press.

Some of the people posting should think with that thing between their ears and not the thing in their pants.

And I recommend reading "The Childrens Story" by James Clavell as a warning of what could happen if we let anybody (press, government or educators) rule our thoughts and deeds blindly.

Someone said: Why did they do this???

They were blinded by their fanatacism -- we are being blinded and restricted by our media machine and government....

Wil, THANK YOU FOR PRINTING THIS, Michael Moore posted something similar on his site right after 9/11 occurred..... but I've seen nothing in the media.

THANK YOU BRO

-- B. Martin
Wanting a safe and free world for all...

First off, thanks for posting this, Wil. At least you gave some people something to think of.

Some comments I find quite offending:

(1) "We continue to be the peace keepers of the World"

(2) "Left-wing elitists and theologists who can't make it in the "real" world so they become teachers! Oh joy! Everything to them is various shades of grey."
=====================
(1) Well, the world thanks you, America. I'd rather think not every north-american citizen holds this view. I know many don't. Thanks for everything you've done right. Shame on you too, for you have also done wrong things. As every nation in the world. So stop considering yourself "peace keepers", and try to collaborate with other countries in keeping that peace. We are looking forward to that, really. You are not alone there, so please don't consider yourselves to be THE peacekeepers. Most of the world out there is trying to keep peace, too.

(2)As someone mentioned, this paragraph takes any credibility away from the poster... yes, you're right. Everything should be either black or white. That would save us lots of headaches and thinking. Black and White. Us and Them. Good and Bad. Yeah

I am not a US citizen, but I was there, on the East Coast, on sept-11. I was deeply moved and terrified. I was sorry, and most of all, I was ashamed for humanity. Not only for terrorists, for the whole of the humankind, for a human being doing such things to human beings. There is absolutely NO JUSTIFICATION for such brutality as this one. I said no justification. But there are reasons behind the terrorist attacks. They don't justify them (such an atrocity cannot be justified), but they are there. I found during my stay that most North-Americans (except my liberal and therefore elitist friends, of course) couldn't understand why such a thing as sept-11 could have happened. Just one piece of advice: keep track of what your country is doing in foreign politics. You tend to rely too much on your politicians in this subject, and you should be much better informed. I mean that in good faith: I love the US as a country, and I think there are lots of great things there. But most of you citizens are a little US-centered. There's a world out there, you know. The way you interact (or the way your Government interacts: it comes down to the same thing) with that world will have an effect in you, too. I wish you had not had to learn it in such a painful, terrible and disproportionate way. Reaping and sowing. Disproportionate reaping, still the sowing was there.

Regards from Europe, and let the flaming begin again

"As hard as it may be for some people to believe, the "war" that we've entered is not a war that can ever be won."

Of course the actions we are taking are not as cut and dry as a formal war. There will never been an official truce, but there will eventually be a slowing in terrorist attacks and reforms. The word "war" isn't the best way to describe what we are doing, but what do you want them to call it, "Dubya's prolonged international military action to curb terrorist activities in the World?". There will never be an established end to this war, you are right, and that is all the more reason to take a different approach to the classification of prisoners and the system we use to prosecute them.

And I hate to tell you this, but Saudi Arabia and the US are slipping out of their friendship. They will not let us use their bases soon for military actions, and they are also doing very little to control the terrorists residing in their country. We might buy alot of Oil from them, but they are fucked now that Russia is selling alot to us and will soon become our biggest supplier. It's sad, but Saudi Arabia will start to shrink economically and could very well turn into the next Afghanistan over the next 20 years.

"Of course no US media is going to publish this. That would qualify as 'taking a stand on something'."

Gimme a break. Every paper has published Op-ed pieces about lost civil rights and the war on terrorism. The only difference is that the papers here do their best to just lay the facts out, and not slant them toward the left or right. Cmon teh guardian is just the british village voice.

"It is pointless to fight a war in which we abandon the very ideals that we are supposedly trying to protect. Period."

That's a very vague statement. We are not fighting for the rights of people in this war liek we were in the revolution or the civil war. We are fighting to avoid being attacked again. We are fighting for survival. Did you miss that over the past 9 months or did you just feel noble posting a sentence like that?

"Like it or not, the west is not coming under attack because we've always treated the rest of the world so well that they have nothing else do to."

Believe it or not, religious fanatics need very little reason to commit large acts of violence like this. You seem to need a more concrete explanation than this for the attacks, but there isn't one and doesn't need to be one. THis is a war over idealogies. Fortunatley, our system of seperating church and state beats "Kill others in the name of allah".

"We have all been told that disent is "evil" now. That we should watch what we say, toe the party line."

Wow you are milking that line John Ashcroft said for all it's worth, aren't you? Cmon, criticizing the government has gone on since the beginning of time. No one is going torrest you if you post your opinion about what the government is doing. Crying wolf like this only destroys the credibility of others that share your views, so be careful.

"In addition, I don't think these "overly idealistic" intellectuals are putting their ideals over real world issues. I think they've probably put a lot of thought behind this"

The obviously did not. These are people who believe any peace is better than any war. If they thought this through, they would offer solutions to how we should react and deal with attacks like this in our future. Instead they use their
"positions" to try and come across as people whose opinions matter more than others. We have way too much faith in the fairness of the views that scholars have anyway. Most college professors are nothing more than lifeling students who want to be able to preach their views to students without question. I went to college at the New School in greenwich village and was always shocked how naive the professors were and how unquestioning the students were to their views. I mean cmon, professors? People who spend most of their time on a campus are the most out of touch in the real world.

"I most fervently wish we had MORE teachers, scholars, artists and theologians. Maybe we'd have less prisons, poverty, and violence."
...maybe not so much idealistic, Dale, as simply a real alternative to the insanity society has devolved into"

Funny, in most fanatical arab countries, scholars, teachers, and theologians hold high ranks in their societies. They use this position of authority on religion and knowledge to mold people into unquestioning, violent drones. Face it,everyone has their system of politics, no matter how "open-minded" or scholarly they seem. The position of "intellectual superior" given to professional academics is not only undeserved, it is dangerous.

"To those who seem angry at Wil for posting this, I think he is very much within his rights as a free, sane human being to agree or disagree with the ideals of government."

Stop accusing people of disagreeing with one's right to say something. NO ONE is arguing Wil's right to post the letter or give his opinion. Why is it that every time a political discussion heats up, the argument used over and over again is "They have the RIGHT to say what they said"? No one said Wil didn't have a right to say what he says. All they said was that they disagreed with him. No one argued his right to say what he said, so please stick to the argument at hand. If you mispercieve my disagreeing with Wil as me telling him he didn'thave the right to say what he said, that's your problem. Stop jumping to alarmist conclusions.

some thoughts from ome thoughtful people...

The natural progress of things is for government to gain ground and for liberty to yield.

— President Thomas Jefferson.
1743-1826
Every normal man must be tempted at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.

— H.L. Mencken.
1880-1956
Freedom is a hard-bought thing.

— Paul Robeson.
1898-1976
There are two freedoms -- the false, where a man is free to do what he likes; the true, where he is free to do what he ought.

— Charles Kingsley.
1819-1875
Then what is freedom? It is the will to be responsible to ourselves.

— Frederich Neitzsche.
1844-1900
Liberty is its own reward.

— President Woodrow Wilson.
1856-1924
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

— Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), Letter to Josiah Quincy, Sept. 11, 1773.
Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.

— President Thomas Jefferson.
1743-1826

He who has lost freedom has nothing left to lose.

—Unknown.

Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious.

— Oscar Wilde.
1854-1900
Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

— Mark Twain.
1835-1910
Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought.

— Pope John Paul II.
Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.

— George Bernard Shaw .
1856-1950
It is harder to preserve than to obtain liberty.

— Vice President John C. Calhoun.
1782-1850
If a nation expects to be both ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be.

— President Thomas Jefferson.
1743-1826
Those who expect to reap the blessing of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it.

— Thomas Paine.
1737-1809

"some thoughts from ome thoughtful people..."

Can you please tell us your view instead of posting the same quotes that have been used 10,000 times since 9/11? Many of them seem contradictory anyway.

In response to Janis Cortese's post, I must say i believe that you have not got the wrong end of the stick, but rather have the wrong stick entirely. I was attempting to explain why many people have a hard time with the Us vs them mentality and the open ended policy that has been put into place that will not only continue an ultimately unwinable war, but will also curtail your own personal freedoms. I asked whoever read it to be objective and your comparisons to the opinions of the terrorist is both laudible and offensive. Further to this I was commenting more on why people have become increasingly apathetic with the post 11/9 response. I apologise if this was not conveyed fully.

I didn't make a pledge to kill anyone in any country in any part of the world.I leave that job to the people in government who have way more info than I do. I'm pissed that anyone in the USA should give a damb what another country's news paper's opinion is.

Dale S:
He's expressing his views *with* the quotes.

It's actually been shown in studies that where there is a higher level of education, there is a reduced crime rate. We've got more lawyers than teachers, and our prison population is one of the highest (if not THE highest) in the Western world. So please do not deny the power of education in society just by bringing up the fact that many "fanatics" in Muslim countries are teachers.

I would suggest you take a class in Middle Eastern culture and politics. It might change your mind, it might not, but it certainly can't hurt.

telguy:
The Guardian was publishing a letter written by people from the USA.
In addition, it's often a good idea to know how the other side sees you. Not only might they have an outside-the-box idea, but they can help put a sense of perspective on the situation.

It seems that many people assume there was a very solid reason that we were attacked on 9/11. That this was the result of many years of American oppresion in foreign lands. I think that while perhaps terrorists convince themselves this is true, a solid reason is not needed to attack the US. Timothy McVeigh attacked a federal building because his idealogy was that large goverment was inherently evil. We stood toe to toe for 50 years with Russia while flexing the power of both of our nuclear arsenals. A 50 year long cold war fought over nothing more than ideals and ego. No one questioned why McVeigh bombed the fed building in Oklahoma City. We knew then that it was no one reason, we knew that no matter what we did, he would have an angry, violent view of the government. No one blamed the US when he killed many children. We need to get away from this idea that there is a highly evolved political reason for 9/11 and other terrorist attacks. There is not much of one. You must realize that it is a primitive human instinct to loathe those who have more power or control than you. It's david vs. goliath. Ideal vs. Ideal. Nothing more.

"Alarmist" does seem the best choice of words here. Actually, that statement regarding the right to agree, etc. was not meant for you, Dale. It was for those who appeard to suggest that Wil should not have opened this discussion (at least from my perspective): someone even bothered to tell Wil to "shut the fuck up" as though he erred in even considering the matter. My apologies in not making the nondirection of that particular emphasis towards you clear. Only the bit about the idealisticity of an intellectually driven society had its origin from your post. And that not as criticism, but merely that such a society, if implemented with a healthy system of followed checks and balances -- no one's or group's belief system becoming representational of the nonconcurring masses -- would most likely be a very pleasant place. Of course, the probability of it actually coming to pass is not high from what I'm able to detect regarding our largely self-imposed intellectually limited human experience, but it is not something that simply could not take place if all efforts were focused. Or is it?

I brought up the nuts I know b/c some one said no on thinks all Islamics are terrorists and similar statements. I was pointing out that those statements aren't completely accurate. I, in FACT have not made broad, ignorant assumptions particularly about people's motivations. I have talked to these people, I have given them opportunities to explain their motivations & beliefs. They refuse to discuss the issues. All they say is "eye for an eye" and "if you (meaning me) don't agree w/ me (one of the nuts) then you are unpatriotic & stupid". I know that not everyone who disagrees w/ me is like any of those nuts I described. I would not ASSUME such.
Again, I was pointing out these types of people exist. I have to live w/ it everyday. It is scary. And I may not be the only one who faces people like this on a regular basis. That is why I talk about those who follow the gov't blindly. I am face w/ an 'us vs. them' attitude regularly. I do get hassled for questioning the gov't. I am called unAmerican for not supporting Bush 100%. Not necessarily by people here, but elsewhere. So I bring it up b/c it matters that there is anyone anywhere in the US who thinks like these nuts. I worry as much about what they might do as I worry about terrorists. They warp & misinterpret things and go to extremes. Yes, I know people on the other side do this, too, and I'm also afraid of them.
Also, as I said in my 1st post, I do support military action. I am concerned w/ the force of military action going too far. Has it yet? I don't know. I think its close. I think it could. Things are being said & done by Bush and others in his administration that seem to be going that way. Maybe we won't. I'm hoping some one in the gov't will be able to prevent that from happening. But it is still something to be concerned about. Any president and his staff -Republican or Democrat, conservative or liberal- could abuse their powers. Especially in a situation like this in which it is so easy to forget justice for revenge.
I do get flak from those who think any military action at all -even in response to the events of 9/11, also. I don't agree w/ them 100%, either. And they say some horrible things to me, too.
Finally, there is NO JUSTIFICATION FOR ANY NATION TO HAVE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION. There are reasons to have them. But having a reason is no the same as having justification. I have been aware for a long while that we have those weapons and so many of them to deter potential & actual enemies from using the same types of weapons on us. But it is still wrong. We can't just make them disappear, ours or theirs, I know that. But its still wrong. It is sad anyone anywhere decided they were necessary or felt pressured to have them to protect themselves. But its still wrong. Because we have them & they have them, its an awful situation.

Again, Dale S.:
There are deep reasons why there is a distrust and dislike of Western powers in the MidEast.

There are political reasons - we were up in arms over Kuwait, but did we do anything for Lebanon during its Civil War?
The US and other Western countries have screwed over the Middle East BIG TIME, ever since Napoleon. It has been an area that has been exploited for centuries by outside powers that had no idea of the inner workings of the different cultures that reside there.

I am not excusing the attacks of the 11th.

I am just saying that in order to make any firm judgements of ANY kind, you must first understand your enemy. At this point, I don't think any of us really do.

Some people are taking this way too far. Opinions are great, No one will ever take that right from me no matter what. But to go and insult somebody for stating their opinion and then asking everybody elses is really good. And here I thought that we were all adults here. At least most of us are. Yeah I know, I sound like an ass, but this is my opinion, you can disagree with me but don't insult me. I have that right.

"So please do not deny the power of education in society just by bringing up the fact that many "fanatics" in Muslim countries are teachers."

You missed my point. I am not denying that college educations help people maintain a higher level of employment and lower rate of crime. What I am sayin is that anywhere in the world, people always make the assumption that scholars and academics have a higher understanding and wisdom of issues they discuss. However, no matter how well-studied or articulate someone is, their own views slant their opinions to the right or left. If I listened to every naive professor in college I would be jumping on bandwagons to legalize drugs and push for socialism. These professors were very well spoken and smart, but they always pushed their views in one political direction or another. Blindly assuming their views are balanced, right, or open-minded since they are at a higher academic level is a dangerous generalization. People have too much faith in formal education anyway. Independent thought sprouts from independent study, not just reading one sided political views.

BTW, my dad is from the middle east and I understand the area and religion quite well. Thanks for playing, though.

Go you, Angry Penguin :)

Thank you, Wil. Thank you.

M

I'm very sorry your higher education was that way, Dale S.

I guess you'll have to excuse me for thinking that these people have a point. I guess their bias runs the same way mine does, and contrary to yours.

You're right, everyone is biased. There is NO impartial judging, if you get right down to it. But does that mean that we should not read something and agree with it? Does that mean that we shouldn't be moved by something someone says and agree with it or vice versa because of its effect on us?

...and the next person to bring up "idealistic naive young college student" can shove it up their biased ass.

I understand the need to listen to the opinions of other countries to get an idea of where the USA stands. I wans't clear with the comment about giving a damb. I meant that the people in the artical (American citizens)should keep thier opinions to themselves in this situation. I'm a telecommunications technition, I try to stay out of diplomatic/political work, Ive got the wrong tools. As some Hollywood actors lack the same tools, I think keeping thier mouths shut would be helpful.

"You're right, everyone is biased. There is NO impartial judging, if you get right down to it. But does that mean that we should not read something and agree with it? Does that mean that we shouldn't be moved by something someone says and agree with it or vice versa because of its effect on us?"

No. I didn't mean it that way. If you read something that you genuinely agree with and feel that it articulates your viewpoint very well, by all means agree and support it. My only quarrel with many points of view, including people holding the same as mine, is that very few of them are speaking from experience with the topic they are discussing. I guess I have just always been annoyed by the fact that professors always seem to be ones with the least amount of experience but the most credibilty. Things are getting blurry now. Must...get...away....from...computer.

But why should people keep their mouths shut, telguy? To me, that sounds a helluva lot like censorship, and that is the LAST thing a situation like that needs.

I could've sworn there was an amendment to the Constitution out there, something about freedom of speech.. heavens me, where was that thing...

One of the great things about America is that people have the right to be able to speak thier opinion. Where would we be, what would we have become if the Constiution didn't allow for such a right?

GOD BLESS AMERICA!

I know what you mean, Dale. :)

"But why should people keep their mouths shut, telguy? To me, that sounds a helluva lot like censorship, and that is the LAST thing a situation like that needs."

I think telguy has the same problem as me. So many people voicing their opinions in a very public forum, but very few truly understand what they are talking about. Is there any creature more annoying than Alec Baldwin?

I'm sorry, but I have to say this. Awhile back someone from the UK stated how great Clinton. I voted for GWB in the last election (which, for reasons other than most of the ones discussed here, I am thinking was a mistake.). I see that GWB has his faults, but Gore and his supporters were just too close to Clinton for my tastes. I just can't stomach that man. I also want to say that this has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with his affair, but it does have everything to do with integrity and our legal system, however flawed.

I just hope that not every citizen of the UK, Europe, or the world looks on Bill Clinton as the next JFK. Geeze, how a world like that would suck.

I can think of many more annoying people than Alec Baldwin.

Mr. Ashcroft
Jessica Simpson
Rebecca Engle
Kevin Costner
Arnold Schwartzenegger
Mr. bin Laden
Halle Berry (on occasion)

A lot of the people who wrote the letter the Guardian published are fairly well-educated in this matter.

Thanks Dale, You gave me a new signature:

"Is there any creature more annoying than Alec Baldwin?"

I know what you meant RE Alec Baldwin, but he is entitled to his opinion. Pick on the people who publish him instead.

"I just hope that not every citizen of the UK, Europe, or the world looks on Bill Clinton as the next JFK. Geeze, how a world like that would suck."

Clinton would have been a great man if he could have kept it in his pants and been more of a human with his family. I am not offended because he had sex per se, rather I am annoyed that it is common sense that something like this would obviously be a huge scandal and he still did it. That hillbilly did alot for our country, but war was something he wasn't a master at.

Wil,
Thank god your one of the few people who speak their mind. I'm glad a few people are noticing the rape of the constitution and America by both Al-quieda and members of our government.

I do not find this writing Anti-American but Pro american. Our freedom to express opinions is the principles which we are trying to fight to keep in this country and yet many people long to squash with in our own country. To those who find September 11 a shock wake up and pay attention. Now feel anguish for what happened do not get me wrong, but America has done far worse than blowing up buildings. We are the only country who have use Nuclear Arms actively. We've killed citizens of other countries instead of militarty targets repeatedly. We provide military weapons to anti-democracy activists (the taliban is an example). Many times our weapons have been used to killed innocents by the people who buy and sell our Military weapons. Thats why many countries hate us. We involve ourselves to much militarily in other countries and cause havoc. We favor terrorist countries like Saudia Arabia only because we need their oil. If we are the strongest power in the world we have a serious problem. As peace keepers we have soiled our hands in blood of many people. We have assissinated our own principles of liberty, freedom, and equality. We do it now to ourselves for "safety" but we are sacrificing our liberty for safety, if that is the future of our country i see a growing control that will eventually squash all the personall freedoms we have fought to protect for centuries. If we sacrifice liberty for safety than we have destroyed ourselves.

YES. Go after the people responsible. YES. Make an example so that hopefully someone will think twice before doing something similar again. But for all that is sacred and right and true, I just wish the goverment would PLEASE put some thought into what it's doing and proceed with a little less recklessness. How many months has it been? Osama isn't dead yet? Even if you kill Bin Laden, someone else will just rise to take his place.

The immediate reaction is revenge. Go kill all those people in retaliation for who we lost. Think it through. That will solve nothing if America does not start seriously reevaluating its priorities and the way it presents itself to the rest of the world. I destest bullies and I will not have one speaking for me, either.

I am fortunate that I was born an American this time around. I cannot possibly imagine how much more difficult it must be to live anywhere else, what with the economic conditions... from things such as natural disasters to crime to disease and famine, etc. I like living here. One of the REASONS I like living here is that I'm allowed to think for myself. And that includes disagreeing with the government if I don't.. well.. agree.

That makes me anti-American? Sorry, but I think that makes me more American that anyone who's simply following along like blind sheep. Call me names if you want. That's your right under the constitution. You also have the right to remain ignorant and make yourself look like an idiot for your "love it or leave it" and your "with us or against us" attitudes that you so freely spit out left and right.

The world is not black and white. It is nearly black on one end, nearly white on the other, and has infinte shades of grey in between. The sooner some people in this world realize that, the better for everyone.
~MatrixRaven
*I think that this says how I feel too...only better put.*

Um quick comment about the bush administration, not that i fully believe this but theres a conspiracy theory that September was a preplanned attack involing several internal catalists.

Curious to think the most controversial election allowed a man to become illigitamtely apointed president in a state run by his own brother, the same state trained by the hijakers. With in several months the president took a long subatacle within less than 6 months since sworn in, and ended shortly before the 9/11 attacks. Its Curious Bush also proposed during an energy crisis investigated in the economy of Afghanistan earlier for companies to tap its potential oil. Also curious, the same terrorists who attacked america were trained by the Cia during Bush Seniors administration. All this in less than a year in office. Sounds a little questionable.

Um quick comment about the bush administration, not that i fully believe this but theres a conspiracy theory that September was a preplanned attack involing several internal catalists.

Curious to think the most controversial election allowed a man to become illigitamtely apointed president in a state run by his own brother, the same state trained by the hijakers. With in several months the president took a long subatacle within less than 6 months since sworn in, and ended shortly before the 9/11 attacks. Its Curious Bush also proposed during an energy crisis investigated in the economy of Afghanistan earlier for companies to tap its potential oil. Also curious, the same terrorists who attacked america were trained by the Cia during Bush Seniors administration. All this in less than a year in office. Sounds a little questionable.

I sent a response but it got FARKED up. I understand the screwups, I hope Wil gets me to think about things I care about enough to make me chime in with you guys again thank you...gotta go to bed...

WHATEVER!

Frick the damned Guardian morons!

Gina:
Why? Because they published something someone else wrote?

"Curious to think the most controversial election allowed a man to become illigitamtely apointed president"

He won fairly. The Miami Herald (liberal newspaper) did a recount of all the votes and bush really did win.

Honestly, cmon. Unless there is hard evidence, do not bring up conspiracy theories. It is insulting to drag unsupported theories into the very serious issues we are facing.

Go put your tinfoil hat back on and wait for the greys to come abduct you again.

KJB you are cute. Let's go out and sometime and argue politics. I'll even play liberal for the night and let you pull out my chair and pay for dinner. :)

Ohmigod, Dale S., you brought up the Greys from ID4.

Sounds good, except I might kill us both in a justifiable mercy killing.

Sorry, Wil, I have to disagree with you on this one, PLUS with the blatantly Anti-American Guardian for printing this. And, as for the self-loathing people who wrote that piece of filth, I pity them, but love the fact they they did it. I support their argument to say what they want to say, as long as they don't advocate the overthrow of the United States government.

Wil, picking up non-US citizens for questioning and incarcerating them until their background is verified is something I am VERY comfortable with. I am a student of history and of the Constitution. I'll know when people go too far.

Now, changing our immigration policy and "picking" on a specific group of people; namely young Arab and Middle-Eastern men. That is something we have to do. It's racial profiling, yes, but who is committing these crimes?

Plus, equating Panama City, Baghdad, Vietnam, and September 11th? Are these people out of their freaking minds? The level of self-loathing and anti-Americanism is rediculous. I don't mind people debating this topic and getting upset with the government, but what they do and have done is WAY on the wacky side. If America is so bad, why do they live here? They are always carping about how brutal and unlawful our government is. They should move to Baghdad, or Kabul (where, by the way, they recently had their first free elections in a LONG time, and, where women actually have an opportunity to go to SCHOOL for the first time in a decade) or just about any other nation in the world. Then they would see just how "free and open" the rest of the world is.

If you stand for nothing, then you'll fall for anything.

I do, however, appreciate what you say and how you say it, even though I don't agree with a lot of what you say.

And when it comes to the United States reserving the right to pre-emptively act anywhere in the world it sees fit to preserve its national interests, that is NOT a new policy, it's just been restated more clearly in the Bush White House.
Check out what Clinton had to say about pre-emptive strikes against states who possess weapons of Mass Destruction.

It's a complicated world, and sometimes the biggest kid on the block has to set up the rules.

And Noam Chomsky is the biggest Anti-Semetic, self-loathing anarchist the United States has seen since the Vietnam war. What a freaking hack!

Much Love, Wil.

I massively respect you.

Trevor

Trevor:
I'm a student of history, too.
And the idea of picking up every little foreign national and questioning them sickens me. If I'm some random-ass tourist, and I'm picked up, incarcerated, and questioned, you can sure as hell bet the farm that I'm not going back to that country, and I might have a much more negative impression of them than before the whole incident.

Even though it's Hollywood, I suggest you pick up The Siege. It's fiction, but there's truth in there.

Remember what happened the last time we tried racial profiling? Japanese internment camps. Yes, a different time and place, but that does not make it ANY less wrong.

But thank you for your input.

To the people who made comments stating that the writers of the letter are bleeding heart liberals: Read who signed it again. There are historians, lawyers, professors, etc. who far outnumber the celebrities. These are thinking people. The problem with this country is that you have to be a sheep and follow everything that the government and the fanatical nationalists say or you are committing treason. I love this country; I do not love the government. I have the right to say and think whatever I want and whether it agrees or does not with the masses should be irrelevant because this is supposed to be the "Home of the free..." Why is someone called a bleeding heart liberal when they (gasp!) have the audacity to think for themselves and dissent with the flag wavers?! The reason why we police the world is not for some humanitarian and altruistic reason. Anyone who is that naive to believe that should get more edification on world events. The reason we do it is simply down to politics and money. If this country cared about what was happening to the Afghani people, why has it taken over a decade for us to step in and "liberate" the people of Afghanistan? Am I the only one who finds it ridiculous that the public is actually proud of us -a country that is arguably the super power of the world- charging in to Afghanistan in a power play? It had nothing to do with helping those oppressed in that country.
I love you Wil. I really do. You are an intelligent and incisive person and one of the few people out there who has the backbone to point out the hypocrisy in this country.
This country does not have a lily white record in the history books. What happened to the Native American population's land? What about the slavery that took place less than 100 years ago? What about all of the disgusting prejudice that happens today with people who are not caucasian, male, republican, christians?
I am sure that there will be posts insulting and attacking my viewpoints, which is fine because that is the point of freedom of speech. However, I think that before a comment is made out of ignorance and pettiness, one might want to consider thinking through why they are making that statement, instead of being super patriots to the point of closed minded blindness.
Thank you.

To the people who made comments stating that the writers of the letter are bleeding heart liberals: Read who signed it again. There are historians, lawyers, professors, etc. who far outnumber the celebrities. These are thinking people. The problem with this country is that you have to be a sheep and follow everything that the government and the fanatical nationalists say or you are committing treason. I love this country; I do not love the government. I have the right to say and think whatever I want and whether it agrees or does not with the masses should be irrelevant because this is supposed to be the "Home of the free..." Why is someone called a bleeding heart liberal when they (gasp!) have the audacity to think for themselves and dissent with the flag wavers?! The reason why we police the world is not for some humanitarian and altruistic reason. Anyone who is that naive to believe that should get more edification on world events. The reason we do it is simply down to politics and money. If this country cared about what was happening to the Afghani people, why has it taken over a decade for us to step in and "liberate" the people of Afghanistan? Am I the only one who finds it ridiculous that the public is actually proud of us -a country that is arguably the super power of the world- charging in to Afghanistan in a power play? It had nothing to do with helping those oppressed in that country.
I love you Wil. I really do. You are an intelligent and incisive person and one of the few people out there who has the backbone to point out the hypocrisy in this country.
This country does not have a lily white record in the history books. What happened to the Native American population's land? What about the slavery that took place less than 100 years ago? What about all of the disgusting prejudice that happens today with people who are not caucasian, male, republican, christians?
I am sure that there will be posts insulting and attacking my viewpoints, which is fine because that is the point of freedom of speech. However, I think that before a comment is made out of ignorance and pettiness, one might want to consider thinking through why they are making that statement, instead of being super patriots to the point of closed minded blindness.
Thank you.

Let's also not forget McCarthy and his witchhunts.

I advise all of those who are in favour of the war effort in the Middle East that continues post the fall of the Taliban and the liberation of Kabul to buy themselves a good quality dictionary and meditate on the meaning of the word hegemony for a few days.

The Bush administation is not concerned with world freedom but rather with making the world free for a capitalist food chain at the top of which will sit the United States.

The murder of innocent people is never justified no matter what cause it is done in the name of. I would have hoped that the events of 9/11 would have taught us that.

There is one thing that I can not stand is people who can't express an opinion but wind up getting caught up in their own mindlessness. Its the same thing when people write letters, make phone calls, and create awareness groups to get something in the world banned. My basic stance is this; it's alright to have an opinion on a subject and to stand behind it with YOUR VALUES. The problem that comes into the picture is when a small group or single person decides that it is their job/duty to make everyone else in the counrtry/world have the same values as they do. They set out to "save the world". This is seen from people trying to ban popular radio shows, TV shows, and other "harmful" materials. What's right for one person is not always right for the majority. My basic point is that this article was based on the same idea of trying to get the US to "see it their way". People like that just want to be heard to feel important in their own way because they want to "save the masses" from something that they do not agree with.

This is complete and utter bullshit. When any of the signers of this document actually have to worry whether or not they can make it to the next payday and still feed the family, then I will listen. Celebrities get paid entirely too much for what they do and have no clue what REAL 9-5 work is. This clouded judgement leads to stupid letters like the one Wil linked. Wil, you may be the exception, you seem to work fairly hard. But when an actor gets $20 million for a movie, their overall take on the world is a bit twisted. Damn, Liberals!

Oy. I feel like I have come completely full circle after a day on this thread. Listned to and read everyone's viewpoint and still feel my opinion is correct.

You are all invited to KJB's and my wedding. It will take place at the Star Trek Experience in Vegas.

I certainly do not feel qualified to comment as the rest of ya'll have. Being a stay at home mother of two little girls keeps be very busy and I really pay little to no attention to the news, local or otherwise.

In my very simplistic view, I will say this. Several things about 9/11 annoyed me. First and foremost was the attack itself. I was enrolling my daughter in speech therapy when it happened and I cried all the way home. Then I turned of Nickelodeon and my husband and I watched and cried together. I hurt for the families and as the media announced the names of other cities that were on alert, I ran to the phone and called my own family making sure everyone was safe.
The question of why came up then and I listened and watched more CNN and MSNBC than ever in my life.

And the opinion that sickened me the most was Jerry Falwell who said the attacks were the result of God's anger over the immoral state of our nation, particulary with respect to homosexuals. This offended because
1. I am a born again christian who loves her gay brother very much. I am very close with him and his lover and I certainly would not lay the blame at his doorstep or at the homosexual communitys' doorstep.
2. As a Christian, I was sickened that maybe, just maybe, my fellow americans might think that the christian community might hold to this viewpoint as well, which could not be further from the truth.

Anyway, Wil, it took a lot to publish this and it's taken alot for the rest of ya'll to voice your opinions. As for my humble opinion, I still do not feel educated enough to comment save for this:
My uncles all fought in Vietnam, my father is a WW2 survivor, my cousin is a Marine as is my brother-in-law and my husband served in the Navy. I believe in my country and I love my American freedom and my flag. I have a high respect for the price that was paid for me to have those. During this time, I am committed to praying for my country and its leaders and when opportunity serves, to vote as my consience would dictate.

God bless us all.
Vikki

I don't have the will power to read through all the posted messages. Wil, I don't know if you are against what that site said or for it. But I got a few messages down and saw some guy say that all Islamites have it in their blood to kill all Americans. What those terrorists did was send a message to the United States. Maybe it wasn't by the best means possible but these people are desperate! Someone else posted that Americans get to enjoy their posh life because of the great force they are...YES WHILE THE REST OF THE WORLD IS SUFFERING IN OPPRESSION. It reminds me of before the revolution in france where the rich were eating crumpets and looking out into the streets where the poor were hungry and angry. The rich didn't even care until the paupers who had been neglected and taken advantage of finally stormed the castles and made their presence known. LOOK AT THE METAPHOR PEOPLE. Also the poor people in the street had caracter and the rich fucks didn't. I see the US as arrogant, self centered, they don't have self control (Of course i am making generalisations). PEACE KEEPING...BAH...OIL PRESERVING!! Sorry I am going out on a rant here that should not even be broached. But I will say this......maybe this is the world's way of revolting against the US. And instead of worsening the problem (as most Americans seem to be doing with their vengeant...kill kill killl....we hate them mentality) they should listen up, broaden their perspectives, open their minds and realise there are more people in this world then just Americans and those people have brains too, families too, feelings too. Going out on a patriotic binge is not going to help the situation believe you me. Nobody wants anything worse to happen to America and believe you me...America thinks it is invinsible and so well guarded....but believe you, me, if there is a will there is a way.

Patriotism.... "The Alien Registration Act passed by Congress on 29th June, 1940, made it illegal for anyone in the United States to advocate, abet, or teach the desirability of overthrowing the government. The law also required all alien residents in the United States over 14 years of age to file a comprehensive statement of their personal and occupational status and a record of their political beliefs. Within four months a total of 4,741,971 aliens had been registered. "

we have moved back, not forward....

To the guy with the "conspericy theory" Um I aint a fan of Bush neither but making him some sort of dictator is just plain ridiculous, even if a few minorities lost their votes.
However replying to Fallulah'S last comment I do concurr. We as American's nievely our arrogant my worst fear is our arrogance will be our undoing as it may come here among these complexity of events that is blowing out of preportion.
(Apologies I can't spell)

Well, on one of my first times here, I find this... I copied the link and wrote about it on my own journal, and I'm expecting the same amount of contraversy. We'll see...

If nothing else, thanks for posting it. It was worthwhile reading.

WE

Vicki, your statement has to be one of the best posted so far. I occasionally let my sense of importance get to me, all the pride I feel for doing a good job a work and suddenly think I have all the answers. Your post made me wake up.

The point I'm trying to make is that we don't have all the facts, we don't have all the answers. No one knows exactly what is going on in the Middle East or Washington D.C. or even next door. To make bold statements and harsh accusations is foolish.

Have you ever felt kinda strange when, during a presidential election, they ask Calhoun Stubbs from the backwoods, who knows nothing about the election, to give his opinion on the candidate's foreign policy? Now Mr. Stubbs may be a very smart individual, but if he starts giving a strong opinion on the matter based on rumor and hearsay, who wins?

I just wish we could start giving everyone a fair chance to speak and that people would realize that no matter how smart they think they are or how clever they feel, they really don't know half of anything. I know that I sure don't.

Thanks so much Vicki for reminding me.

rghermes:
That group of people was made up of people who also have to work. Perhaps, now, they don't have to work as hard as some, as they have reached places where they can live within their means. But a goodly portion of them were college professors and writers who do not simply rest on their laurels, but must be active in order to stay afloat.
Granted, that isn't exactly the hard work you were looking for, but honestly, do you only listen to people who work in low-paying jobs and worry whether their money will go to the next payday?
If so, then please don't listen to the media, or experts, or the president.

Dale S.:
I'd have to concur with you on the same-opinion sentiment, however it differs from yours.
Will the wedding be in costume? and will there be a Spudnuts threesome involved?

i am on both sides of this argument. we don't have the right to ruthlessly attack other nations when we are unprovoked. BUT, if we get attacked i feel we have the right to retaliate. And its not like we didn't give afghanistan the chance to turn over bin laden.
i say let the politicians do what we elected them to do. And don't bitch about this country unless you are willing to live without all the freedoms we are given. I've been there and it sucks.
One other thing, i have a question, where was everyones patriotism before 9/11??? It makes me sick to see the same people who on 9/10 would have told you how much our country sucks and all this other shit. now they are the ones proudly waving there flags and now talking about hoqw they love our country. you know who you are and you people make me sick.

"Will the wedding be in costume? and will there be a Spudnuts threesome involved?"

That is all up to you my dear. My only request is that I am not dressed as Ensign Crusher. I wouldn't mind getting married as a klingon and you as my sexy violent mate. Awwww YEAH. Instead of flowers you can throw targ entrails into the wedding party.

I have said too much.

"Curious to think the most controversial election allowed a man to become illigitamtely apointed president"

He won fairly. The Miami Herald (liberal newspaper) did a recount of all the votes and bush really did win.

----
Dale,

The Miami Herald did a recount. But a group of several other news-sources conducted a separate recount statewide.

After all the recounts were done from all the counties, two ironic end results were discovered.

If the solution Gore was fighting for at the end -- A recount of selected counties -- had been done, Gore would have still lost.

However, if the solution Bush argued was the only fair method (and there was obviously no time for) -- a recount of all counties -- Gore would have won.

I can find you a link to this if you wish.

"If the solution Gore was fighting for at the end -- A recount of selected counties -- had been done, Gore would have still lost."

Must suck to be a democrat then. No need for a link. It's funny, peopel can almost always find information to support their views and beliefs. I long for the days of unsupported bullshit. Sigh.

The older I get, the more I wonder where it all went wrong. Maybe I'm an optimist, but I can't help believe that the majority of people all over the world just want to eat well, live well, and die peacefully in their sleep. I'm thinking we should all just leave and let the fanatics squabble over the tattered remnants of this poor planet. I know history would eventually repeat itself, but maybe it would take a generation or so, and meanwhile I could get a good night's sleep for a change.

Thank you Wil for posting this -- whether you think it's leftist nonsense or the best thing you've heard all week, at least you're thinking.

Must suck to be a Republican, too. You're stuck with a singing Attorney General.

Honey, with regards to the reception - I was thinking a live band. I haven't had one of those in a while.

Do you think Wil would do some sketch comedy for it?

"Honey, with regards to the reception - I was thinking a live band. I haven't had one of those in a while."

Sure that's a great idea. Heavy metal or country?

"Do you think Wil would do some sketch comedy for it?"

Hell I want him to be the one that marries us. Then at the reception he can do his comedy thang.

We'll honeymoon in Iraq, my love.

Aargh! I'm afraid I have to react.

Fact: America is not at war. War must be declared by Congress. More importantly, calling this a war legitimizes the terrorist actions. If this is a war, then they are soldiers, not terrorists. If this had been a war, then the 9-11 assaults would have been war *crimes*. Again, these terrorists are *criminals*, not soldiers. As much as I am against war in general, I think being a soldier is a respectable profession.
By the way, by denying the detainees in Cuba Geneva Convention rights, the US implicitly acknowledges that this is *not* a war.

Then, whoever planned these attacks must be brought to justice, no doubt about it (it's crimes, remember?). But, one thing the US should *not* have done was oppress the American people in the name of the 'war' on terrorism. "You're either with us or against us", "these limitations of liberties are necessary to defend ourselves", all of that has been said before by oppressive regimes (Nazi Germany, USSR, Communist China, take your pick, there's dozens more). I don't want to get into military actions abroad, but limiting free speech in the name of patriotism is not the way to defend freedom, and plays into the hands of the terrorists.
The US is on a very slippery slope, and there is a real danger that if this goes a bit further, history will compare the early 21st century with the McCarthy era.

I'm an immigrant, and I've never even gotten a traffic ticket, but I understand that under the Patriot Act I can be detained for 7 days for no reason other than being a foreigner. Fortunately, the Bush administration doesn't even seem to care about these restrictions, and is holding hundreds of people secretly and indefinitely, foreigners and Americans alike. Did you get that last part? There are Americans being held indefinitely and secretly, no right to counsel or anything! The justification is that the president says that they are 'bad guys'.

The people signing the letter in the Guardian are not saying the US should do nothing in response to 9-11, they are defending freedom.

Oh, and by the way, for those complaining about that bleeding-heart left-wing liberal Guardian, did you not get the part that they did not *write* it? They're just publishing it, it is signed by Americans. The fact that it took a British newspaper to publish it proves their point. Complaining about the Guardian is complaining about freedom of press and freedom of speech.

I think that "with us or against us" is one of the worst catchphrases ever conceived. It suits Klingons or T-shirt manufacturers, it definitely does not belong to life in real world.

anonymous:
You just said, very eloquently, what I tried to explain to someone else above earlier. Thank you, and I hope you don't get nailed for being from another country. That would suck more than Carrot Top singing.

As for you, Dale my sweet:
If it's between metal and country, I'm going with metal. Country would only make me want to break out the machetes.

If the honeymoon's in Iraq, can we visit a few sites? I've got some things I want to see, and I've got a hunch or two about a few sites, esp. near Uruk (now Warka).
Assuming they didn't get bombed to all hell in the early 90s.

It is interesting the persons writing this declaration say they support those 'suffering' from the policies of Bush. To whom are they refering Al Queda, bin Laden, other terrorists, homicide bombers? They do seem to stand with the terrorists! If they feel that these people are more morally upright and fair than the FREE WORLD, let them live amongst them, for one year and see how many survive. These people would have supported Hitler, by standing aside and allowing him to kill MILLIONS of innocent, all the while chastizing Churchill or Roosevelt, as being 'war mongers'. The terrorists are fascists, look it up, the US is not. We listen and try to understand. I'm done thinking that these animals need to be coddled.
How many more Americans, or other freedom loving peoples must be murdered/executed by these barbarians. Are the people on this list brave-or-stupid enough to be first in line to die with another attack? I think not! There is not that much justice in the world.
IT IS US OR THEM PEOPLE. GIVE ME WORLDWIDE LIBERTY FROM TERRORISM, OR GIVE ME DEATH.
Wil, I remember how you were slobbering all over Asner on the Arsenio Hall Show, following him around backstage. Give him a bj, grow a brain and get over it!

LONG LIVE NYC! GOD BLESS BUSH!

"If the honeymoon's in Iraq, can we visit a few sites? I've got some things I want to see, and I've got a hunch or two about a few sites, esp. near Uruk (now Warka).
Assuming they didn't get bombed to all hell in the early 90s."

We will go anywhere you like, my queen. I want to see the bunker where saddam keeps his backup harem and hidden vats of nerve gas. If anyone asks, we are weapons inspectors, not infidels. And with that I must sleep. I will dream of you and me on a holodeck doing naughty things. Gnight.

NYC:
"Fascist" isn't a term I would use here, unless we're talking about Hitler or Pat Robertson.

Please, try to think before you post something like that. It only makes you look silly.

Sweetest Dale:
I look forward to our Adventures on the honeymoon. May your dreams be as risque as mine.

I'm glad you posted this, or I never would have found it.

I have taken a lot of flack from my friends for opposing the war since day one. For ranting about our treatment of the "detainees" in Guantanamo Bay. For telling my friends that even terrorists are God's children.

I'm not anti-American, I'm pro-people.

To stay on topic: I'm glad that some entertainers and professionals got together to sign this. Like it or not, they have more clout than the average person. (That's why we're all commenting on wilwheaton.net instead of on my site, not that I have one.) The truth is, terrorism will never be stopped, and lives are going to be lost in the process of trying to.

Terrorism is "the systematic use of violence as a means to intimidate or coerce societies or governments." Not that cluster bombs could fit into that category, not at all. Want a hero, look at Jason Schechterle, look at anyone, but don't look at your own government, who is killing children and women and men in another country, and hiding it.

President Bush asked the media not to cover the war, not to show pictures. "Because we don't want another Vietnam." We don't want intelligent people questioning the government's actions and possibly sparking a social revolution that could fix some of the problems in this country.

Don't you think we need to question, maybe the war's not a good thing? If there's no possible benefit, if we're just chasing rabbits? Maybe we need to stop and save some lives.

Liberal knee jerk bullshit. It was this kind of thinking that allowed september 11 to happen in the first place. The FBI didn't check Moussaui's(sp) computer for fear of being accused of racial profiling.

This isn't in an American paper because it isn't news. It's an opinion, and I agree with most on this list, of a bunch of elitists who are so far removed from every day life that I can't really take their opinion seriously.

I hear a lot about understanding these islamic terrorists. No, I don't want to. I don't understand a people who perpetrate the worst forms of human rights violations on their own people still to this day. Want to see the real thing instead of pontificating? Take a look at some of the islamic law at work at www.ogrish.com. And yes, the Daniel Pearl video is there too for all you who want to know the reality of who these people are. The fucking thing was even produced with subtitles, music and graphics by these murderers.

Imagine if America all of a sudden adopted this kind of law. These bleeding left assholes would by be the first executed. I'm sure they'd be wondering where our military was as they were buried to their knees in dirt and then stoned to death by an angry mob. Or, perhaps being torn apart by two jeeps as they sped away in opposite directions, your arms tied to each. Or Wil, what if your wife Anne lifted her burka to see where she was going when she crossed the street and a bunch of thugs flogged her with sticks as you and your step sons watched helpless to do a damn thing about it. And Wil, you WOULD be helpless. Remember, we aren't talking America as it exists today where you could speak up. You'd watch a bunch of thugs beat your wife and have to be the one who nurses her wounds when you get home.

I don't want to understand these murderers and sickos. I'm ok with taking down people who threaten democracy and freedom, not to mention who are working feverishly to get their hands on a nuke so they can take a few more NYC city blocks.

And the people on that list can shove it up their ass as far as I'm concerned. We are a country, and like every other country we make mistakes and bad calls, but we've made some damn good ones as well, and a lot of these countries who hate us are directing their rage in the wrong place. They should direct it at their own dictactorial "governments" that keep all the profits from the US and other Western countries from their people who are starving for food and keep them shrouded from information in an Islamic country so they deflect their people's rage away from them and point it at the US, the islamic world's boogeyman.

Yeah, well to them, fuck you. You don't like the West, then don't sell your goods to us to get rich. Cut us off. We'll be fine without you. I personally will be the first in line to volunteer to pay $5 a gallon for gas to keep the profits out of the hands of murderers and terrorists who want nothing more than to watch me and those like me die at their hands.

One last attempt before I nod off -

I'd like to think that some of the people on this list aren't far removed from "real life". They are leaders of such groups like the Middle East Childrens Alliance, the Centre for Constitutional Rights, and the Institute for Food and Development Policy/Food First. These are major groups, and the person in charge probably isn't some bigwig who sits at a big desk in the corner office of some highrise in a major metropolitan center, sitting on his laurels and drinking Veuve Cliquot all the time.

I'm well aware of some of the horrendous laws in some Middle Eastern countries. One thing to remember, though, is that NOT EVERYONE is like that. There are plenty of Afghanis, Iraqis, Lebanese, and others, who are not fanatical Muslims who take certain Quranic elements to an extreme. This is as true as the statement that not all Germans were Nazis in WWII.

You have a point. Some rage should be redirected to the governments of these countries. But aren't we all more willing to blame someone else? The heads of state in these countries are native citizens. They are not "Others", as the Western world is. That's not an excuse, merely a reality.

Western involvment and interference with Middle Eastern affairs is well-documented. There is quite an amount of justification behind anti-Western thought. Westerners divvied up conquered territories and assigned puppet leaders at random. At the first sign of a rebellion, no matter how peaceful, it was CRUSHED. Villages were bombed out of existence before a goodly portion of the people on this board were born.

Does that make it ok?

No. It is merely fact.

There are generations of hate built up against Western culture, and we're lucky to have come out this unscathed thus far.

With that, I bid thee adieu, and I hope you can see this issue with a calmer head.

Peace out.

Thank you for posting this Wil. I'm amazed at the backlash by your readers. This situation is intolerable. War is never right. Killing more people simply means that more people die. That can never be justified no matter how much hurt one person or one nation, or even one world feels.

This is not backlash, this is what has happend to the US because of 9/11. I don't like it but either your for us or agin' us.

What a load of crap.

A couple of points on the Guardian:

Yes, they're a left-wing newspaper, which means very left-wing in American politics but in the UK they are fairly mainstream. They're not anti-American but it's true to say they are critical of the Bush administration. They're also very critical of Tony Blair's government, including his anti-terrorism bill and various other bills that threaten civil liberties here.

It's not hypocrisy to have concerns about American actions against terrorists in Britain either, regardless of what has been going on in Northern Ireland. Not everyone supported British actions there - the Guardian was as vocal a critic as any - and in any case the situation there is far removed from what happened last September in New York and Washington.

Finally, think about why you're fighting: I'm not saying don't go after the terrorists, but if victory is at the cost of freedom of speech, a fair judicial process and the loss of other civil liberties what exactly were you fighting for?

People who like this article have serious flaws in their understanding.

1. They think that we aren't in a state of war. We are.

2. They think during war time certain rights don't have to be suspended to win the war, and obtain full rights of freedom back. They're wrong.

3. They are the first to complain that our current adminstration failed to do all it could to stop terrorism, but they continue to try to prevent the FBI, CIA, the presidency from having the tools to do so.

I am proud to be an American, part of which is understanding people in America like Wil Wheaton who I respect very much have the right to speak loudly about things they don't understand, and say things they one day may well regret. I just hope people realize that their are two sides to every store, the attacks aren't over, the death toll will mount, and you and your family and mine may be next. Be ready to do what it takes to win this war.

Hey Wil,

Thanks for posting that link. I am usually in the minority when I bemoan all the presidential references to 'Good & Evil'. It is reassuring to know what good and learned company I am in. I am so sick of hearing all the propagandist bullshit put out by the White House. As American citizens, we should demand that our lawmakers proceed with caution. Not only will many of the laws being passed in the name of 'safety and security'limit the rights of others, they will limit our own rights as Americans.
"They that give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety...
deserve neither safety nor liberty."
Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
Beware the government. Personally when I hear Í'm from the government, I'm here to help'I don't feel relieved, I feel scared.

The American media really pisses me off too. I listen to NPR because I believe I get a more balanced, in-depth and less biased view. However, it's impossible to ignore the glaring omissions. For example the shit going on in Israel and Palestine. I am always floored that the American media is so obviously anti-Palestine. They don't even attempt to give both sides of the story. Not even on NPR. Sometimes one has to turn to the foreign media just to get a differing opinion. Even in Canada we get information that it seems the American media never bothers to include.

It sickens me the way we have allowed some conflicts to be re-cast as 'fighting against terrorism'. Chechnya is a prime example. Funny how I used to hear about this conflict on NPR all the time. Not so much anymore, hmmmmm. Whenever it is mentioned it's always in the context of 'terrorism'. Before 9-11 this wasn't the case. The Chechen fighters were always referred to as rebels before that. How convenient for the Russisn government, eh? Now they aren't brutally murdering rebels who may very well have a valid cause. No, they are fighting the évil terrorism'.

Let's be careful what we wish for...........

On the principal that you should bomb a country who sponsors terrorism back to the stone-age, should the UK have bombed the US for their blatant support of the IRA? Many more people have been killed here than on 9/11, just not all at once.

Oh and Hitler was voted for, by the German people in democratic elections. He then found a common enemy (Judaism) and proceeded to eradicate freedom and liberty in the name of state-security.
The retoric of National Socialistic politicians at the time, was scarily similar to what some of you are expressing here.

Pick up a history book and look at the similarities. Then think.

Okay, SEMI-off topic:

Wil is no dummy. He posted this article knowing what kind of responses it would draw. ALL kinds, even immature ones. He's a big boy. He doesn't need to be protected from people who lash back at him for posting something he found interesting. So, people lashing look silly, but so do those who argue with the morons being.. well morons. :)
I'm sure "Uncle Willy" has his own good set of balls and can take it.

"The Alien Registration Act passed by Congress on 29th June, 1940, made it illegal for anyone in the United States to advocate, abet, or teach the desirability of overthrowing the government."

Since our founding fathers fought for the right to "imagine the death of the king" the above was defiinitely a step backwards, and our movement away from that declaration, a step forward again.

A line must be drawn between talking about it, and actually doing it.

(Actually.....revolting isn't illegal if you're successful...it's only unsuccessful revolutions where one gets convicted of treason. When you're successful you become patriotic heroes.)

My American ancestors fought in the revolution. I can say that. However, unfortunately, I have to admit they felt like many on this comment board. They felt that revolution was wrong, and that their problems could be solved by working it out peacefully with the government...the British government. They fought on the side of the British, and were termed "loyalists."

Of course we know they were in the minority. And we're taught in our history classes that they were the traitors to the cause. But we're taught their philosophy is the correct one for today. A nice little moral conflict. How do we resolve it?

I'm not saying I favor taking the fighting to the streets. There are a lot of my ancestors in me. But I do see the conflict, and I definitely do not think of people who speak their minds, suggest the country may be on a wrong course, and publicly encourage a course-change, as treasonous. I feel if you think the country is headed in the wrong direction, it is your **moral duty** to speak as loudly as you can.

------
I also found it sadly humorous the poster who proclaimed the wealthy celebrities had no idea what it was like to be a common worker, and in the same breath, decried all Liberals. I guess they feel that the Conservatives in power do know what it is like to be a common worker. Dubya grew up working as a gas station attendant, right? Cheney was a busboy at a diner?

Albert Einstein, The World as I See It (1935):

"That a man can take pleasure in marching in formation to the strains of a band is enough to make me despise him. He has only been given his big brain by mistake; a backbone was all he needed. The plague-spot of civilization ought to be abolished with all possible speed. Heroism by order, senseless violence and all the pestilent nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how I hate them!"

Remember: history writes that Hitler's rule began in the name of patriotism. Germany suffered terribly after the end of WWI, economy was terrible. For good or ill, many countrymen looked at many Jewish business owners doing well with angry jealousy. Hitler set forth a serious of patriotic events to bring "his country" back from it's grave. He succeeded, until his downfall.

I am not preaching pacifism. Even Einstein drew back from his pacifistic ways in the end. What I wish to say is that we need "balance". One should never follow a path for the sole reason that it is "patriotic" nor should one avoid a path for the sole reason it is "controversial". I believe that this is what Wil has tried to do here. Open your minds, not try to change them for you.

I still remember a high school teacher with a sign over his desk, "Thimk". It was large, difficult to miss the misspelling, but it took courage to ask about it. Someone finally did, he only smiled and said it caused someone do DO IT, not just SAY IT.

So I give you all a reminder. THIMK!

Brave call, Wil, and appreciated.

A lot of people have put well thought-out and intelligent arguments both for and against. Sadly, too many people have reacted in an overly defensive way and resorted to childish put-downs (ironically, often calling the article 'a knee-jerk reaction'...).

It scares me that anyone can lay a blanket label of 'evil' on an entire country, nay, an entire 'Axis'! Bush's 'Axis of Evil' (aside from being possibly the most ridiculous politcal statement I've ever heard) is not comprised of millions of Lex Luthors, all scheming to take over the world. It's comprised of people, humans, pure and simple. Yes they are different, yes terrorist actions are inexcusable and wrong, and yes some of the governments are oppressive. Do you judge a country's people by its government? Especially when the government has not been elected by the people? My impression is that many Americans would not like to be judged by their democratically elected government's actions...

I'm not trying to say that underneath, every Arab secretly loves America. Many of them are very angry and I feel have reason to be. They're not jealous of America's wealth and power - hello, the USA is not alone in its standard of living! Many countries share a very similiar standard of living, yet you don't see the same hate against Australia or Western European countries - they've been meddled with too many times. Look here for a list of what the CIA's been up to in its time...
http://www.milnet.com/milnet/ciaops.htm

Ok that's very simplistic reasoning, I know there's a lot more to it, but it's something else to think about. The American government is not an innocent lamb that's been attacked out of nowhere. And I don't feel that continuing the cycle of violence by bombing the hell out of the Middle-East is going to solve anything.

And all I really would like is to see people think. Those that have swallowed the government's word whole and responded to this article with "fuck the Guardian/bleeding heart liberalists/derogatory-label-of-choice. Go USA!!!", well, those people scare me. And to those people, I leave this:

"Go back to bed America, your government has figured it all out. Go back to bed America, your government is in control. Go back to bed America. You are free, to do as we tell you."
- Bill Hicks

"This situation is intolerable. War is never right. Killing more people simply means that more people die. That can never be justified no matter how much hurt one person or one nation, or even one world feels."

There were wars fought with very good reason and wars fought for very bad reason. Vietnam was a war we simply got involved in because of a conflict of idealogies. The revolutionary and civil war were fought in large part for the rights of a group of people. World War II we fought because we were attacked - damn good thing we did too, hitler might not have been defeated quite so easily without us. Some wars are a mix - the gulf war was fought because a weak ally of ours got invaded and oour other ally which provides a large part of our oil looked like it was about to get invaded too.

The war on terror was started because we were attacked and diplomacy failed in bringing these people to justice. War is necessary in many conflicts, especially when we were attacked first, and when the enemy wants to play dirty and make no move toward diplomacy. Andy Rooney (the whiny old guy from 60 minutes) was a pacifist in teh early 1940s, until he got shipped off to world war II. He saw that while war was horrible, many people were in need of liberation through force. He said "I saw how foolish it was to think that any peace is better than any war."

Because, well, with peace at any cost desired, we would be France.

"And all I really would like is to see people think. Those that have swallowed the government's word whole and responded to this article with "fuck the Guardian/bleeding heart liberalists/derogatory-label-of-choice. Go USA!!!", well, those people scare me. And to those people, I leave this"

You must be looking at this thread with your liberal goggles on. I remember calling the signers of the letter out of touch liberals but never screamed my blind allegiance to the US government. You are making assumptions based on your own worst case scenarios. You think if I have no respect for these people in the letter and support the war on terrorism, I am some kind of unthinking patriot robot? Those are totally unfounded views on your part, it is just easy for you to slag people off like that.

"I'm not trying to say that underneath, every Arab secretly loves America. Many of them are very angry and I feel have reason to be. They're not jealous of America's wealth and power - hello, the USA is not alone in its standard of living!"

I would agree that "jealous" is the wrong word. Frustrated would be the best way to describe it. They have a centuries old society based on islam, the most important factor in their lives. We are a 200 year old secular country with the world's largest economy and most diverse societies. What do they draw from this? That their system does not work well, that a society based on ancient religious laws will not lead to growth or innovation, only stagnation. I would be frustrated too.

"Thank you for posting this Wil. I'm amazed at the backlash by your readers."

Ah you mean readers who don't agree with politics that you see as obvious and the only way? Nice.

Very entertaining, thanks for posting it.

There is a grain of truth there, but if they had used less hyperbole they might get more people to listen. Personally, I view information from "Prominent Americans" with the same amount of skepticism I view information from "The US Government".

Has it ever occured to the left that the vast majority of American's are in favor of our current course of action because it just might happen to be the correct course of action?

Given the chance thse people will destroy us. We really have no choice and it might be easy for Lou Grant to take these positions, but I imagine his point of view might change if a dirty bomb went off in Studio City and I have no doubt that your position might change as well Will.

Dale S - my first point that you argued... that statement was aimed at those people who left crap thoughtless one-liners abusing The Guardian, Wil, or anyone else who supported the viewpoint made by the article. Not at everyone who holds a different viewpoint to mine.

As for your second point - ok I can appreciate that sentiment, especially if you add the idea hat this upstart of a young country goes and meddles in Middle-Eastern politics! :)

However, I echo again my point that America is not the only country (or even the only young country) in a much better economic position than the Middle-East. Having lived in Australia, England and America, I can tell you that although the numbers might be better for the US, the standards of living are not noticeably different on a day to day basis. I don't feel the frustration is the sole reason for the hatred. African nations don't carry the same hate for the US.

"Has it ever occured to the left that the vast majority of American's are in favor of our current course of action because it just might happen to be the correct course of action?"

Of course, but having thought about it, buggered if I can see how this course of action would help in any way. And I'm far from being alone in the sentiment, certainly outside the US, anyway.

"Given the chance thse people will destroy us"

They've been hating the US for decades. So what's _really_ prompted the government's actions now?

I cried when I saw the first tower fall. I've never been affected so deeply by such a tragedy. But I can't see how attacking the Middle-East helps the situation any.

This "dirty bomber"...why was news of his arrest held back a MONTH? Does that mean he was held for an entire month without any proper legal proceedings? Why did the release of the news coincide with one of Dubya's pushes to rally support for an assault into Iraq?
Does anyone know? Just curious, wanting to LEARN...

Incidently, I still havent received a response to my question about weapons of mass destruction, other than "Because we can" and "its the ultimate deterrant".
If its the ultimate deterrent, why is the USA the only country that gets to have it? If all it takes to get named a rogue state is to have attitudes that the USA may not like and to have nukes, then that effectivly allows the USA to brand anyone they like as dangerous.
Where is the evidence that Bin LAden is in Iraq? No-where. If this "war" is aimed at defeating terror, shouldnt it be going after the terrorists, rather than countries that got such a battering last time they pissed off the US that they can barely feed their population?
Come on. I can understand and sympathise with the American need to retaliate after 9/11, but why did it take an attack on America to get you guys to start trying to do something about the terrorists that have been plaguing the rest of the world for decades? Why is this "measured reaction" rapidly turning into an excuse to stomp over the Middle East, and anyone else who gets in the way? The Axis of Evil speech was very clear, it laid out the states that Bush would like to pound into dust. I've yet to see evidence on how that would help bring sickos like Bin LAden to justice.

"As for your second point - ok I can appreciate that sentiment, especially if you add the idea hat this upstart of a young country goes and meddles in Middle-Eastern politics!"

It's not as simple as that. It was NATO as a whole that created israel. Many countries participated in it. In afghanistan we helped them fight off the soviets since they cold war was still raging then. Of course we made the mistake of leaving after it was over and leaving a political vacum, no goverment whatsoever. We made a mistake and now we are fixing it by helping afghanistan build a democratic and elected government. I see how you could see it as "meddling" but what is the alternative? Life and pilitics are complicated - this isn't 1940, we can't pretend the rest of the world doesn't exist anymore.

"However, I echo again my point that America is not the only country (or even the only young country) in a much better economic position than the Middle-East. Having lived in Australia, England and America, I can tell you that although the numbers might be better for the US, the standards of living are not noticeably different on a day to day basis."

You are correct, there is not much of a noticable difference between america and other developed nations. The reason is that people can only hate what they know. American culture, business and media permeates almost every country in the world. People around the world know where the empire state building is, but how much do people know about the sydney opera house? We don't hear much about english or australian culture in teh rest of the world. If we did, there would definitley more negative attention focused on them. Don't forget that australia and england have both participated in alot of the military action the US has taken in teh past few decades. It just happens america is an easy, visible target.

"I don't feel the frustration is the sole reason for the hatred. African nations don't carry the same hate for the US."

Heh ask any Somalian what they think of America. Didn't you ever see black hawk down? I think black hawk down is a great example of the complicated relationship has with the rest of the world. We originally started to send massive amounts of food to somalia to help those who couldn't help themselves. Of course the corrupt warlords over there started to restrict and steal the food from teh masses, so what choice do we have but to go in quickly and catch the people who are forcing thousands of people to starve? There are always calls for america to share it's wealth, forgive debt, send food, etc, but along with that power comes responsibility to follow through on what we give, to protect what we give them, and to make sure the people who need the supplies get it. It would be ridiculous to give money or goods to a country then sit idly by as their corrupt government or other people just piss it away.

"But I can't see how attacking the Middle-East helps the situation any."

Who is attacking the middle east? We wanted one fucking man and his accomplices. We gave them more than a month. Finally we were forced to go in and go after them ourselves. Countries like Iran and Iraw ARE dangerous and must be dealt with, because they have the power the resources, and the history to provide terrorists with what they need. I don't see how you can think that there was no need for action in the middle east.

Ahhh, but it does help. Every people needs someone to blame, someone to point the finger at and say "it is their fault". By giving everyone someone to blame we take the burdon of our troubles off our own weary minds and hearts and aim it at another. We have what 1300+ in custody now? indefinately, without the necessity of trial (if we choose not to). Who's paying for it?? Guess... us. Ahh, but we hate them right? they deserve no rights?? why pay for their food then? why give them any? let them starve. let disease waste them away in indefinate prison sentances without trial, without hope. Or toss them in a furnace, or medical experiments. It has all been done before, ALL in the name of "patriotism." Ahh, but it will NEVER come to that, we people in America would NEVER do that, right? Never in all our history did we do anything like this!! Not in our own concentration camps for the Japanese-Americans during WWII. Not at Wounded Knee, or the trail of tears. No, Americans would never do that.... *sigh*

Be very, VERY careful of not setting limits on what people can do to others.... History is not a pretty place to browse for what has been done in the name of "patriotism."

Better yet, Christianity calls for peace, these people are not Christian. Therefore let us go forth, in another Crusade against all non believers. "Kill" all who do not believe in "non-violence." What then makes us better than they? *sigh*

To everyone that posted here: The FBI, watchdogs of the Homeland Security Czar, has added you to their list of people to keep an eye on. Oh crap, I just posted here!

--NT

"Remember: history writes that Hitler's rule began in the name of patriotism. Germany suffered terribly after the end of WWI, economy was terrible. For good or ill, many countrymen looked at many Jewish business owners doing well with angry jealousy. Hitler set forth a serious of patriotic events to bring "his country" back from it's grave. He succeeded, until his downfall."

Hmmm, reminds me of the Arab nations view towards Isreal today. Perfect environment for a Bin Laden to rise. The Arabs couldn't give two hoots about the Palestinians. Jordan killed 100,000 of them when they tried to migrate there, as an example. Isreal is a perfect scapegoat for "governments" with an oppressive regime and horrible economy. And that is exactly what is happening.

As for why Australia and others are not a source for hatred, it is because they are not a superpower. The US is considered the head of the serpent to militant Islamic extremists.

Thanks Wil. War sucks. Nations create their own problems.

When will we stop thinking like nations and start thinking like a planet?

"Incidently, I still havent received a response to my question about weapons of mass destruction, other than "Because we can" and "its the ultimate deterrant".
If its the ultimate deterrent, why is the USA the only country that gets to have it? If all it takes to get named a rogue state is to have attitudes that the USA may not like and to have nukes, then that effectivly allows the USA to brand anyone they like as dangerous. "

I don't see your point here. The US is not the only country with nuclear weapons. But we are a state with a stable, systemized government. We have 50 years of experience in the use and conditions of using nuclear weapons. We also are not driven by a grudge and religious fevor. Pakistan and India just recently built their own nuclear arsenals, and have fought three wars in recent decades. These are not people who should have nucelar weapons. Why shouldn't Iraq have weapons of mass destruction? Hmm let's see perhaps because they have a history of using them frequently in wars and on their own damn people? That's a good enough reason for me to restrict these state from having these weapons. Countries large and small will have or develop their own nucelar weapons in the future. We can't stop that. So why the hell would we give up the strategic advantage and expereince we have. It's the equivelant of throwing away your gun in a tough neighborhood and bending over. Cmon.

"Where is the evidence that Bin LAden is in Iraq? No-where. If this "war" is aimed at defeating terror, shouldnt it be going after the terrorists, rather than countries that got such a battering last time they pissed off the US that they can barely feed their population?"

The government never claimed laden was in iraq. But with hussein in power and with the weapons he has he is a great host nation for terrorist parasites. I don't think you should go around claiming that they don't have enough money to feed their people. Hussein is an evil fuck, just like north korea. To keep his people controlled and angry he holds back food and the millions he makes from oil and builds mansions for himself. He is the cause of the majority of the suffering in Iraq. The goal of the war on terror is to find and destroy terror all over the world, not just bin laden. Iraq is a great example of this.

"Better yet, Christianity calls for peace, these people are not Christian. Therefore let us go forth, in another Crusade against all non believers. "Kill" all who do not believe in "non-violence.""

Heh you bring up an interesting point. You have to bring up an event that happened 300 years ago committed by corrupt christians. Here in the year 2001 the only religion that still believes in genocide of other religions and infidels is islam. It's frightening that these people are living by such ancient, violent beliefs in the name of religion. The problem that islam has is that they have never had their version of Martin Luther. No one in islam of prominence has ever stood up and said "Ok, we must move forward with our beliefs and take a step into today's time. We must respect human rights and avoid corruption."
They need someone brave to guide islam into the morals and beliefs that ever other religion has realized in the 21st century.

I live probably 25 miles from Studio City and even if they set off a "dirty bomb" in Downey, I can honestly say my opinion would not change. Here's why:

What we are doing won't work. This Homeland Security reorg is just political slight of hand. It does NOTHING to change the two fuck-up organizations that didn't do their jobs, the CIA and FBI. It scrambles everyone and makes the administration look busy, but in the end I don't think it will be any more effective.

I would be pissed off. I would be terrified. I would mourn. I would want revenge, probably for weeks afterward. I would hope, however that those in charge would be stronger than my rage and bereavement.

Taking away the rights of American without due process of the law is just an excuse for sloppy investigation and enforcement of existing laws. Had they embarked on a thorough investigation before aprehending him and taking him into custody, if what they are saying is true, they would have been able to capture him and possibly members of his terrorist cell. They would have foiled the plot and they would be able to convict him under the same criminal law system that prosecuted other terrorists including the first World Trade Center Bombers, Masoui, the Shoe bomber, and domestic terrorists Timothy McVeigh and the Unabomber. Our justice system has worked and has served us well. Why do we abandon it in a time of crisis? What was the hurry?

The hurry is that the administration was under immense scrutiny and criticism following revelations that the FBI and CIA had enough dots to make a picture, but failed to communicate. This comes after months of us hearing about visas being issued to the dead terrorists that had plowed thousands of people into their grave six months prior. This came after the administration appeared bruised that perhaps they weren't doing everything they could and should. I don't blame the President for 9/11. I just blame him for the mess afterward. "Let's Roll!™" indeed.

I don't agree with EVERYTHING in the arguably liberal letter, but I agree with far more than I disagree. We have been acting like the big swinging dicks internationally. We've been taking our war plans and shopping them from country to country, only to be told by most countries that there is "No Sale."

And who do we send to India and Pakistan to sooth over tensions? Secretary of State Colin Powell? No. Donald Rumsfeld, the head of what is essentially our offensive war efforts.

We are picking a war with Iraq and have been advertising it for months, dispite our military leaders telling us we aren't prepared to do that right now, what with the "war" in Afghanistan.

Sabre rattling. It looks good to look presidential. Have you seen the campaign material (Powerpoint presentation)? According to the presentation, the Republican strategy is to focus on two things: 1) The War [which they say they are doing very well] and 2) The Economy [which they say they aren't doing as well].

So, war is their strength. "Let's go with war."

Rather than embarking on a path that is the best for the country, they are embarking on a path that is best for the election of Republicans.

Meanwhile, the administration moves in every direction to kill one of the most fundamental of American rights, the right to dissent.
Bush says: "You're either with us, or you're against us." His spokesman, Ari Fleischer warns us: "Americans need to watch what they say, watch what they do."

In front of Congress, Attorney General John Ashcroft says: "To those ... who scare peace-loving people with phantoms of lost liberty, my message is this: Your tactics only aid terrorists, for they erode our national unity and diminish our resolve. They give ammunition to America's enemies and pause to America's friends. They encourage people of goodwill to remain silent in the face of evil."

I am a person of goodwill toward America and I will not remain silent in the face of evil, and what Bush, Cheney, Ascroft, and company are saying is un-American, if not evil.

Two days after 9/11, after I could stop crying, I wrote the following on a Website I edit. It amazes me that even in my grief, I could see the true evil below the horizon:

Dear Friends,

The events of this week have left us bereft, and nearly speechless as we have watched acts of terrorism unfold, and then give way to acts of valor, human compassion, and bravery. We honor of those whose lives ended far too soon, those who were left behind, and those who risked their lives in protection of others. We invite you to share your feelings, insights, and inspirations with us and with others, who like us, are looking for comfort, for inspiration, and for hope that tomorrow will be better.

While September 11, 2001, will forever be known as the day America held its breath as profound acts of terror struck us in our heartland, the days that follow shall be a testament to America’s character, and our determination to be free from tyranny.

We pray that we have the strength to call upon our better angels and ministers of grace and internal wellsprings of humanity to guide us in the coming days. We hope to find the compassion we need as we face the terror together so that we may overcome it, and bring those who perpetuate it to justice. We are Americans. We will survive, forever changed, but hopefully stronger, and more resolved not to be denied the freedom that has become the birthright of all Americans.

"It amazes me that even in my grief, I could see the true evil below the horizon"

Yada Yada true evil. True evil is the smoke that I choked on that day in manhattan. Not to mention everyone and their mother jumped onto the bandwagon that day screaming about impending war and lost rights. Anti-war protests started 9/12 here in NYC. Did they ever bother to think that finding whoever did this and stopping it from happening in the future was important?

All problems and no solutions. That's no way to win people to your side.

"I am a person of goodwill toward America and I will not remain silent in the face of evil, and what Bush, Cheney, Ascroft, and company are saying is un-American, if not evil.
Two days after 9/11, after I could stop crying, I wrote the following on a Website I edit. It amazes me that even in my grief, I could see the true evil below the horizon:
Dear Friends,
The events of this week have left us bereft"

Stop talking to hear yourself be so damn self-righteous. People like you make me sick with all your criticism but total lack of effort and answers to help solve the problem of terrorism. Post something of use that someone has not already said here, post something other than some self-righteous diatribe you copied out of your journal. Gimme a break. Next you will be hitting us with that Benjamin Franklin quote, Ugh.

The States is wonderful country, and I've met many people from their that i tought were great. I've also enjoyed traveling in the states a lot.
that being said, i've got one or two thoughts to add to this thread..
1) Oil and profits are at the bottom of all of this. to think for a second that america liberated the afghanis from the taliban just out of the kindness of their hearts is insane. if you're building an oil pipeline through a country that country's stability is vital. The Taliban weren't stable enough, so out they went. and considering that the states helped put them in power in the first place shows they didn't have much concern for the citizens of that country anyhow.
2) the idea that america is the 'worlds police' is a bit naive...
i noticed more than a few posts give the phrase 'if not us, then who'...
seriously...it's got nothing to do with making the world safe for people...
it's making the world safe for business..that's all....
did anyone notice the worlds policeman trying to keep the peace in africa much in the last decade? while the hutus' and the tutsis were slaughtering each other in the hundreds of thousands?
no...i didn't either...
so don't use that argument..it's stale...
North america is quickly becoming a continent ruled by big business.....
which do you think cheney and the bush clan think of first when they make a decision?
you, me, peace loving folk?
no...not on your life..
they're business partners, board members etc?
yup....absolutely...

so to wrap it all up, it's not about us (the west) vs anyone muslim or from the the arabic world....
it's us against the corporate leaders that have a thirst to exploit our pain and fear for profit..

and while i'm writing this, folks...please remember that muslim people are not the enemy here, and their religion is no more barbaric than any branch of christianity....

I think you misread me. The true evil isn't Bush. The true evil is in our nature.

And, if you think about it, true evil isn't the towers falling, planes crashing, thousands dying. The true evil is what the terrorists did to America with the result of violent acts. We reacted in ways that are hurting the very essense of what it is to be American--Freedom. And we are being manipulated by political agendas (liberal and conservative) within this country. Believe me, if Gore were in office, we'd probably be having similar conversations. The Clinton administration was no friend of most civil liberties either. Remember the Clipper Chip? Sheesh.

"and their religion is no more barbaric than any branch of christianity...."

Perhaps christianity 300 years ago. But to compare islam to modern christianity is just ridiculous. Please tell me which branch of christianity in this day and age is as restrictive and cruel to women as islam is. We burned some women alive at the stake a few hundred years ago. Muslims STILL stone women to death now because they are raped and get pregnant. I know you would love the chance to break down christianity as an evil and violent religion but islam is easily 100 times worse that the cruelest of christianity now.

The rest of your post is a huge generalization with no attention to detail. It's generalizations like this which enable suicide bombers to rationalize blowing up children in ice cream parlors. Even if the main reason for our actions was oil, (which it is not) the saudis do not seem to mind at all. In fact, the saudis have done pretty damn well for themselves because of Oil.

Jeez, you take a nap, and look what happens.

Islam is not at fault here.

It is the practitioners, those who write the laws, who misinterpret holy writings, who are the ones who are at fault, if we are indeed looking for a guilty party.

Once we start blaming a people for the actions of a few, for the interpretations of a few, we start down a road that is very difficult to retrace.

Remember, also, that overt violence and repression aren't the only indicators. Many Christian sects today still promote lesser roles for women; there are very few, if any, recognized female Catholic priests, and Mormon women are often excluded from positions of power in the Mormon Church. So while it isn't overt repression, it's psychological, and that can often have far-reaching effects.

I don't have a lot of answers. I'm not an intelligence officer, military leader, or a politician with access to the information needed to formulate the ultimate solution. What I can do is see areas that we need to focus on. It's easy for me to say because I am not running for office.

Answers:

1) Reoganize the CIA and the FBI into one organization. Add analysts that read the Arabic. Don't scramble the rest of government just to make them look busy. Spend money on counter-terrorism research and operations rather than buying out oil rights in Florida, tax breaks for the richest one percent, sweet heart secret contracts with companies like Haliburton and Enron.

2) Restore due process. Every American has rights that must be maintained, no matter the crime we think they may commit.

3) Stop sending American arms to other countries because they will sooner or later be used against us. (How many Stingers are floating around out there?)

4) Stop the sabre rattling. Focus military power in fewer places. We can't attack Afghanistan, Cuba, Libya, Syria, Iraq, AND North Korea. We don't have the resources or the political clout world wide. Stop squandering it with empty mid-term election-year rhetoric.

Well, that's four to start. Maybe you could suggest ideas that the President hasn't yet suggested.

" But to compare islam to modern christianity is just ridiculous. Please tell me which branch of christianity in this day and age is as restrictive and cruel to women as islam is."

Not all of Islam believes this!! That was the point. Islamic religion is no more cruel to women than is our own Christianic Bible. The problem is that we still see what we want to see. We take the few and the powerful as representative of all, accept it, believe it. Islam has been around for a very long time, and not all of that time were women wearing the Burkha. That is a more modern re-interpretation of their own religion, much like we did in our own American history for saying that "all men are created equal" does not refer to women and theirfore restricted their rights.

There are groups within our own american countryside that still believe women the carriers of original sin, that they should stay home and bare children only, never work. I believe we have called it "reinforcement of the Christianity Family Values".... Well, at least they don't have to wear the Burkha....

I wonder, if I ask a woman, which is crueler? To wear a burkha, be beaten or killed outright, or bare a child once a year until you die in childbirth.... Well, at least their are doctors who save their lives by performing unnecessary operations to prevent them from baring children until they die.... Oh but then we sue the doctors because it is our right.... Freedom, so wonderful. 300 years ago.... I wonder.... I don't think we have aged at all in those 300 years. Wounded Knee was only 112 years ago.... Japanese-American incarceration just less than 60 years ago. I would rather not point my finger at any religious groups in the USA, but I think you need to study all the Christian groups again.... Even we have radicals.

"Once we start blaming a people for the actions of a few, for the interpretations of a few, we start down a road that is very difficult to retrace."

You are correct, we should never blame the whole of islam. But why does it seem so few muslims (if any at all) denounce suicide bombings as working against the state of Palestine? Why is there not one person or organization supporting or organzing non-violent protest in Palestine? God if they had a muslim gandhi there this mess would have been over years ago.

"Many Christian sects today still promote lesser roles for women; there are very few, if any, recognized female Catholic priests, and Mormon women are often excluded from positions of power in the Mormon Church."

I agree, the christian church still does have a way to go in including women in all aspects of the religion and service. But christianity still presents many opportunities for women that islam has never budged on. Give it one more generation and I think female and married priests will become commonplace.

Good morning dear. I trust you slept well. Your website is quite interesting. Q'apla!

"Not all of Islam believes this!! That was the point. Islamic religion is no more cruel to women than is our own Christianic Bible"

Ah perfect way to put it. Our bible might be out of date and even cruel, but our interpretation and practice of it has been liberal over the past century. There will of course always be nutjobs and fringe groups who take the bible literally, just like extremist muslim groups. But I am talking about the most mainstream and widely practiced version of both religions, not fringe groups. Even in the most liberal areas of islam, how many female clerics are there? Any? In a developed nation like Saudi Arabia, why are there still religious police everywhere, cruelly punishing women for small infractions, forcing women to burn to death because they are not covered.

Cmon, christianity as a whole is alot more liberal than islam as a whole presently.

I don't hold much hope for the Christian churches.

I think perhaps one of the reasons that there are few Muslim voices speaking against suicide bombings and the like is because Western culture and society does not have much room for such people.

In addition, history has shown that peaceful protest in Palestine doesn't work. Peaceful protest was used up to 1965, when it was realised that violence was the only way to get their view heard. Often, the position taken by those in power (in this case, the Brits, but it applies) was this:

If they're not shooting, they're accepting.

I did sleep well, babycakes. I hope you did too. I'm glad you like the site. Snootchies!

"I don't hold much hope for the Christian churches."

We'll see. I stil think they are lightyears agead of islam. Islam is in the delta quadrant. Christianity seems to be in the far reaches of the alpha quardrant.

"I think perhaps one of the reasons that there are few Muslim voices speaking against suicide bombings and the like is because Western culture and society does not have much room for such people."

Western culture might not, but I was talking about the middle east. You rarley hear anyone voicing opposition to the insanity of nonstop violence. You would think after seeing the result of suicide bombings and the wrathe it brings, more people would realize there has to be an alternative.

"In addition, history has shown that peaceful protest in Palestine doesn't work. Peaceful protest was used up to 1965, when it was realised that violence was the only way to get their view heard. Often, the position taken by those in power (in this case, the Brits, but it applies) was this:
If they're not shooting, they're accepting."

Perhaps there were factors that sabotaged the efforts of nonviolent protest back then. But that was about 30 years ago. The world's attention is focused on Palestine now. Suicide bombing might have attracted the world's attention, but continued ruthless actions like this would only lead to the world's revulsion to their techniques and the attitude that they get what they deserve. Now they are closer to a Palestinian state more than ever, and they need to sure the world that they can be responsible and mature. BTW, nonviolent has worked very well in Palestine in the past, albeit on a small scale: http://www.peacemagazine.org/archive/awad.htm

Yes oh yes we would make an interesting couple. Couple of nuts.

"Can you please tell us your view instead of posting the same quotes that have been used 10,000 times since 9/11? Many of them seem contradictory anyway.

Posted by Dale S. at June 14, 2002 04:56 PM "

Yep sure - Will was right on with his post -
no matter the situation is at always possible to over react without thinking.
If these things have been quoted 10,000 times since the twin towers incident may I suggest most people have not read them 10,000 times, or if they have they have not thought about them.

Thomas Paine fomented the the French and american revolutions so think of his statement above all others.

Those who expect to reap the blessing of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it.

— Thomas Paine.
1737-1809

And yes also I believe in Voltaire's dictum.

Do not throw away your hard won freedoms - a lot more died winning them than died in the towers, honour their memory also.

"Can you please tell us your view instead of posting the same quotes that have been used 10,000 times since 9/11? Many of them seem contradictory anyway.

Posted by Dale S. at June 14, 2002 04:56 PM "

Yep sure - Will was right on with his post -
no matter the situation is at always possible to over react without thinking.
If these things have been quoted 10,000 times since the twin towers incident may I suggest most people have not read them 10,000 times, or if they have they have not thought about them.

Thomas Paine fomented the the French and american revolutions so think of his statement above all others.

Those who expect to reap the blessing of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it.

— Thomas Paine.
1737-1809

And yes also I believe in Voltaire's dictum.

Do not throw away your hard won freedoms - a lot more died winning them than died in the towers, honour their memory also.

"You would think after seeing the result of suicide bombings and the wrathe it brings, more people would realize there has to be an alternative."

True, very true, but they are so senselessly fighting for revenge after revenge after revenge that some of them even forgot what they were fighting for. They cry out for the death of those who have injured them and do no care how many innocents die in the process....

Oh wait... we cry out for revenge too.... and innocents must die right? oh well.... I see your point. We must fight, we must kill, innocents will suffer for the greater good of the many, us.

I think we learned well.... we call them terrorists for the same actions.... hmmm.... oh yeah, now I remember, that is because we are always right. :) thank you, I get it now.

"I suggest most people have not read them 10,000 times, or if they have they have not thought about them."

I have thought about them. I have also thought about the time and context they were in. I have also thought about the different translations of what they were saying. For instance:

"Those who expect to reap the blessing of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."

So tell me, did he mean signing petitions or spouting off on computers, or did he mean that it must be supported and defended from those seeking to destroy it through violence and terror? Things take different level of priority. Right now I see terrorism as the biggest threat to my rights and freedoms. These are people trying to destroy our society's spirit and ideals.

It seems to me that people more concerned about their hypothetical loss of rights and orwellian fantasies still don't believe we can be attacked again. This violence and threat from terrorists is very real, no matter where you live. I have seen it first hand and strongly believe that this is a huge imminent threat. It does not seem real to most people here, so they take up causes based on exagerrated ideals and opinions. I know what our priorities should be, and after we are attacked several more times, more people around the country will see it too.

Cute naive little ideas of how we should honor those who won our freedoms is just a waste of our time and effort. They are all dead now. There is no honor anymore. We have to focus on defending our current standard of life and freedoms from large violent attacks. That is the real threat.

"Oh wait... we cry out for revenge too.... and innocents must die right? oh well.... I see your point. We must fight, we must kill, innocents will suffer for the greater good of the many, us."

No one is calling out for revenge against a whole country. This is not WWII. Please show me in this thread where anyone has cried out for revenge against afghanistan. People only want revenge against the people who did this to us. The public realizes that the terrorist attacks were the result of groups of men, not the effort of an entire country. We want them brought to justice, we don't desire at all for an entire country to be brought to it's knees. Stop underestimating the average citizen's understanding of the situation - you do not know more than others, you merely see it a different way.

"I think we learned well.... we call them terrorists for the same actions.... hmmm.... oh yeah, now I remember, that is because we are always right. :) thank you, I get it now."

Sorry, shades of grey. There is a difference between between bombing a suspected taliban hideout and a suicide bomber walking into a store full of children, looking at their faces, and then pulling a cord to kill and mutilate them all for life. Common sense dictates there is an obvious difference between unintentional killing and intentional face to face murder. Don't you dare ever compare that actions of a suicide bomber to those of a military mistake.

Fuck, it doesn't matter to me. If you believe the Palestinian's violence is justified, you are just helping them get into their own grave. Your perogative.

I don't know as the public realizes that these are the actions of a select few. There are plenty of people willing to speak up on how all Muslims are bad and crazy, and that Islam is an evil, evil religion, and anyone who lives in a country that harbors terrorists deserves what they get.

And yes, you would think that people in these countries would revolt and speak out against those in power who condone these actions.

But if your wives and daughters were under constant threat of being killed for small infarctions, and anyone you knew who spoke out against the government (that churned out propaganda that misled the populace), would you speak out? If this situation is beyond honor, doesn't surviving seem like a better idea than risking death by doing the honorable thing in standing up?

Just a thought, my odd lover.

"Common sense dictates there is an obvious difference between unintentional killing and intentional face to face murder. Don't you dare ever compare that actions of a suicide bomber to those of a military mistake."

And so we lock up 1300+ people indefinately because they "might" be one of those?? Fine. I won't compare the actions. If "our" system of justice is so great, if we are so "right". Why do we hold people without due process? indefinately, without trial, without representation. Why do we not give them "our" justice? because we are afraid they will slip through? so we have to give up our freedoms? change our laws. To protect US from someone walking into a store with a bomb, let us arrest everyone who doesn't agree with our beliefs. Since you know what is best. When do we stop? when all of Islam lies dead under our feet? You said it yourself that it is the Islamic religion. Then there are other countries, other religions. Let us kill them all to protect ourselves. Let us drop bombs on churches, on market places. As we HAVE DONE.

I preach only thoughtful action, you preach action without thought. The dead call out for revenge, for justice. Kill until the dead stop calling for more dead, until everyone has joined them in God's grace, God will protect the "right" and we are "right". Those are the words of your enemy and you re-use them nicely for your own purposes....

Pity, that I am causing more killing.... Fine kill ME then. Drop a bomb on my house. It is an apartment, you'll kill innocents. If you miss you will take out a retirement home, but then again, they have lived their lives. Their are children to the south and to the east, but again you serve justice.... But it is my fault you say, that is a small price to pay for justice. I am causing more deaths, so stop me. I defend those who deserve no defense. Kill me so that I may defend no more. Stop my voice so that no more of "your" innocents will die, so that only "their" innocents will die. For they are "they" and "they" do not deserve life....

Guess who calls for the same violence, unthoughtful, from the heart, in the name of his own patriotism? But you are better... you are right.... I bow to your greater knowledge and wisdom. I think we should have kept the first name for our war. "Infinite Justice" for we represent one TRUE God, we can do no wrong.

I think we should apply the same method of justice to our own police don't you think? A man commits murder, kill him and everyone within 10 blocks around him to get him. I think it will go a long way in reducing crime. And handle the population crises too....

The piece linked to from Wil's website is just another intentionally ill spirited diatribe directed against the U.S. by the Guardian. There's nothing "new" in the attacks the Guardian publishes.

What scares me is that there seems to be an "ear" for this type of commentary here in the U.S.

I am far more concerned with the ACLU types that seem to care more about the "rights" of individual(s) purely dedicated to the murder of Americans everywhere, than I am at the fact "Johnny Jihad" Linde and Jose Padilla are being held for further investigation for their apparant treasonous, or at least criminal, activity.

Do I worry that Padilla is a U.S. citizen, just as I am, and that he is being held without being charged and without benefit of a legal counsel? No. I don't.

His actions "earned" his special "enemy combatant" status when he was planning to kill as many Americans as he could with the radiologic "dirty bomb" he was conspiring to build.

The law is replete with provisions to allow "special actions" against U.S. citizens, but these provisions are rarely used. Lincoln suspended "Habeas Corpus", one of the most basic considerations of American Law, in time of need. Padilla and Linde are feeling the "results" of the actions they elected to undertake.

Worried that your "civil rights" will be revoked? Well... I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it... unless you join an agency whose end target is the destruction of the United States. Then I would worry.

To all the "do-gooders" that seek to free every nutcase terrorist dedicated to your very murder, I say take a good look at the graphic, grisly video of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearle's murder. It's not too hard to find on the web...and I've seen it.

They cut his head off (I mean completely OFF) with a steak knife and then held it up like an 8th grader would hold up a soccer trophy.

This is exactly what Padilla and Linde want to do to Americans and I don't understand why some cannot understand that some things are different after Sept 11th, especially for "Americans" that joined the forces dedicated to kill us all.

"Nameless"... too bad you lack the guts to provide a name and a valid email address.

I won't presume to state that I have an answer to what happened on Sept. 11. What I am know or am familiar with is the fear that a bomb may drop on you at any moment; that a stray bullet meant for a soldier or a guerilla will accidentally kill you; the fear of being caught rushing home after curfew and being questioned and beaten all the while knowing you've done nothing wrong; of hearing the streets patroled by soldiers who are just children themselves missing their homes and families and feeling as if they are all powerful merely because they hold a weapon. That is what I know.

I also know that I feel none of those things now. Even walking by the nation's Capitol last week and seeing it all boarded up brought forth no feelings of fear, no worry that I might die at any moment from a 'dirty bomb.'

But right here, right now from the safety of my home, behind this magic box I feel fear; profoundly and irrationally because I read so many comments from people asking for revenge and blood. And frankly that scares me more than anything I may hear on the ten oclock news tonite.

I'd like Wil Wheaton to post exactly WHY the link to this Guardian article was placed on his website. Obviously, he must have an opinion regarding it's relative "worth".

I'd like to know what his opinion, regarding this article, is.

Fuck them and the high horse they rode in on...
Almost every male in my family, from the Civil War to the Gulf War fought to give me the right to say that, and I stand behind every one of them.

justice is and always has been a matter of perspective...and liberty and freedom mean we have to allow those who don't agree with the majority to speak their minds too...or we become as bad as the monster we're trying to squash.....d.burr

At times like these, I wish "Fluffy" was my best friend.

----------------------------------------
All the things wrong with the USA, and they pick THIS to complain about. That alone is enough to call them idiots. We have MILLIONS of people in jail for victimless crimes like drug use. Where are these saviours of humanity on real issues like that?

No, they just complain when we attack countries where 95% of the residents would like the USA to wash into the sea. Pick a better cause.

Jack:
What you read was NOT written by the Guardian.

In addition, many people choose not to post their real email address or the like, because of the spam bots that occasionally trawl sites for email addresses.

Lord Spankypants:
Drug use is not always a "victimless" crime. I invite you any day to join a family with a drug user as a member, and then I'd like to see if you'd call it a victimless crime.
In addition, I'd like to think that genocide, Constitutional violations, and the squashing of civil liberties are worthwhile issues.

Then again, maybe I'm wrong. Yes, let's focus all our energies on Joe Bag-of-Crack, who broke his mother's heart, stole his sister's possessions to pay for his habit, and shoplifted from several different stores multiple times.

No, that's not an exaggeration.

Yes, certain crimes regarding drugs are too harsh. But putting those above precedent-setting actions on foreign citizens? The fate of millions who might be dead tomorrow because of our bombs or someone else's retaliation? The unsteady balance of pseudo-peace?

Please think before you type. You're welcome to your views; that's something we've been granted thanks to the Constitution (but not for much longer if those in power have anything to say about it). Just don't expect me or someone like me to nail you for your words.

a little free paper is town published this request directly after 9/11, something so fitting for this line of discussion:

ten proposed laws of patriotism

1. to buy an American flag, you must present proof you have voted at least once in the last three elections (including local and state elections)

2. to display an American flag in any form, you must present proof of voter registration

3. to wave an American flag in public, you must ba able to name at least one of the following:
a. your senator
b. your representative
c. your president (must specify "W" -- "George Bush" is too vague)

4. to sell any product with an American flag on it, you must answer the following question:
The Bill of Rights is part of
a. the Constitution
b. the Magna Carta
c. the Declaration of Independence

5. those heard singing patriotic songs in public may be asked to show their voter registration cards

6. to be permitted to scream "Nuke Afghanistan," you must be able to correctly locate Afghanistan on a map or globe

7. to be permitted to scream "Arabs go home," you must list and correctly identify ten Arab homelands

8. those who wish to express opinions about Arab-Americans must pass the following test: (circle the correct answer)
a. those who observe the religion of Islam are called (Moslems, Muslins, Fanatics).
b. the holy book if Islam is called (the Koran, the Koram, the Bible).
c. in Arabic, God is called (Ali, Allah, Jehovah)

9. priority for purchase of American flags will be given to those whose ancestors lived on American soil the longest. When all American Indians who wish to display the red, white, and blue are satisfied, other applicants will be accepted.

10. a call for war on any radio talk-show or letter to the editor will be construed as a public declaration of willingness to enlist in the US Army; callers/writers will have 24 hours to complete the paperwork.

I like you, Ms. Lauren. You amuse me, as well as making a humorous and pointed statement.

Now, if only people could actually DO that...

As this thread dies down, I just want to say what a pleasure it has been arguing with all of you. It has been a great mental workout, if not a bit of a waste of time. I hope this thread has confirmed your views or changed your mind, either is an intellectual step forward.

And KJB my love, we will always have this thread.

I think Wil's original post of "I think it is important that everyone reads this" is pretty much the best thing that could have been said: it doesn't matter whether you agree or disagree with those who wrote the letter, so long as you have an opinion. The best thing about this thread is the sheer number of differing opinions that just occasionally surface from under all that namecalling. ;) Personally, I'm just glad the letter was written in the first place. A few anti-intellectuals aside (how do you expect your education system to thrive when you have so little respect for those who *choose* to become academics?), I'm pretty sure we'd be far worse off if that opinion was thought and never mentioned.

A few basic factual points: The Grauniad is *not* contra-US. It is, admittedly, the most far-left broadsheet and the newspaper most likely to publish controversial opinions - especially controversial opinions from conservatives and reactionaries - but this does not equate to being anti-America, any more than it equates to being Anti-UK, considering all the criticism of TB and his policies, from both sides of the political spectrum, which is printed by it. In the midst of the furore over the Cuban internment camps they printed an article - written by a US political commentator - on why Europe should not discuss it in their 'bleeding-heart liberal' way, how incorrect the view of them as contra-Geneva Convention 'prison camps' was, and why the US was entirely justified in their actions. They *like* controversy.

Someone said: "The Allied forces destroyed Germany,Italy and Japan during World War II." As a matter of fact "destroy[ing]" was exactly what they *didn't* do. If you want an example of a country being destroyed after a world was, that would be Germany after World War One: and it is the harshness that was shown to them by France and Britain - against the wishes of the US president at the time, Woodrow Wilson, let it be noted - that is now believed to be one of the reasons why the warmongering and resentment of the German far right arose. This is the reason why I, personally, am worried about the US' policies in world-political terms: because I think harsh treatment breeds thoughts of vengeance, and we don't need a repeat of this situation.

Uh, and also, Annie, Hitler did *not* get in on votes: the Nazi party had some 25% of the vote, IIRC, but they were made part of the centre-right coalition ruling Germany at the time, who thought they could control him having given him a position of such huge authority. Hitler would not have got in to power had the socialist and communist parties of the time been able to compromise with the centre right and form a cross-political coalition.

...in conclusion, this is a *great* thread. :)

First of all I'd like to commend Will on his inclusion of this article and the way in which he introduced it as mentioned by a previous postee, "he said the best thing possible".

I'm going to say in advance I don't know much about politics and even less about American politics, this posting is intended as an expression of my personal opinion that I felt compelled to share. I can say this though, in my home country of Scotland I attend a memorial service for 9/11 and it just so happened there was alot of Americans on holiday in my city at the time, and well I spoke to a few of them and though most of what was said was said in grief and angusih I did get to hear the begining of a genralisation that started shortly after 9/11 that somemone must pay for this. It then seemed to me that the Bush administration had acted hastily and unjustly with it's attacks on Afghanastan. Though with the relase of those video's by Osama Bin Laden it seemed the White House's haste was justified, then we get news just under a month ago that the White House already knew of the possibilty of attacks, so it is left to this reader to assume that though written in good faith the statement in the Guardian was slighty misguided, the situation doesn't appear to be as extremme as they make it out to be, it' just seems like the White House got caught with its pants down and now there just lashing out through embrassement and frustration.

It is not that we *hate* Americans or America. But we question the validity of what your government has decided is the right course of action to take. Americans, (generally) are alright. But disagreeing with your governments foreign policies and hating you are two entirely different animals. Sure, the Afghanis despise the Americans, but that itself is a generalisation too. They probably never met and don't know any American citizens, which is why it was easy for them to cheer when the WTC bombings occured. Name calling and pulling hair will not have the desired result of frank, open, honest discussion about the problems the WORLD is facing, not just the States or Palestine or anywhere else. As someone else stated, it is a world with shades of grey. Criticism of a country will inevitably be taken personally by some people, because of the nature of the beast. If your patriotic, it upsets you. It is not meant to offend (by me anyway) just to inform. Wil is right, we could have a brilliant discussion about this, but the real heart of it gets lost in the 'I'm right, no I am' mentality. Did it occur to anyone there are no *right* answers? Just some answers that hurt us less than others.

Wil, I really respect that you have the balls to put up that article, when the current climate is so hostile to free and independent thinking. I'd just like to point out to some readers that this has got nothing to with the Guardian, apart from the fact that they actually REPORTED it (like a newspaper should do when people of that stature make the statement such as that), which is more than can be said for the American press. Has it actually turned up in, or been reported on, any of the mainstream American media yet? What the hell is going on when there's no credible public discussion about such important matters? It's frightening. The right-wingers are winning the day by promoting fear and ignorance. Very sad. Very scary.

Day's later and YES after reading ALL of this I
have this to say: KJB what you said regarding
Vietnam..it was not called a "war" either" sums
up all the flames etc. WHAT ABOUT NOW!!!!

And yes here is another overused quote.."those
who forget history are bound to repeat it".

IT IS ONE PLANET PEOPLE. ONE..GET ALONG OR PERISH.

PERISH is just that.

To infinity and beyond..PEACE. PEACE. PEACE.

THAT IS THE ONLY SOLUTION.

NO OTHER OPTIONS EXIST.

NONE. PEACE OUT.

"IT IS ONE PLANET PEOPLE. ONE..GET ALONG OR PERISH.
PERISH is just that.
To infinity and beyond..PEACE. PEACE. PEACE.
THAT IS THE ONLY SOLUTION.
NO OTHER OPTIONS EXIST.
NONE. PEACE OUT."

Solution? What solution? I must have missed where you typed it because all i read is "we have to get along". But, Uhm, how? There are alot of people out there who force our hand into not getting along with them. These things are complicated. Simple nonanswers like "we have to get along or perish" are childish and mean nothing.

To the various nay-sayers, including the fellow who mentioned the fact that the letter had been signed by (and I paraphrase) some bleeding heart liberals, clueless actors and Holywood "elite".

Noam Chomsky. Do you have any idea? Do you have a clue? Get one. Please.

This is important stuff America. If you don't want high brow intellectualising, then watch Statrship Troopers. If you can't see the cautionary tale in that, you're really in trouble.

"Terror" is an enemy we can never defeat. The only thing the war on terror will bring is fear and repression to ordinary people. There is no such thing as an "axis of evil". It's complete bullshit.

Politicians are tying to sell us a jisaw the've already glued together. You need to pull it apart and assemble it yourself. The informaiton you need is not continaed in the picture the pieces make as a whole, but how they fit together.

In other words, don't believe the hype. When was the last time you talked to a Muslim? Have you ever been to Syria? Iran? Iraq? Why do you think certain Muslim countries oppose Western cultures? Religion? Politics? Finance? Do you understand the issues?

Separately, don't you think the people of Iraq have the right to hate the West? Just because part of the world doesn't like us does not give us the right to start bombing it arbitrarily. Certain people commited a terrible crime. They should be brought to justice. This is not an excuse to attempt to exterminate an entire opposing way of life.

Isn't there anything to learn from these other cultures? Why are we so certain our political/social/economic structure is the only solution? Are we right to effectively impose it by force (economic/military) on other countries? Can anyone illustrate the fundamental problem with this type of foreign policy?

At the end of the day, if the NATO countries want a war, they'll get one. They've picked a fairly defenceless target, whose voice is either not represented or misunderstood in the West. Disinformation becomes an easy task. Politically its almost a no-brainer.

Except we should all question it. Relentlessly. It is our responsibility to think for ourselves.

In WWII, Germany had an ideology and an expansionist agenda. If you disagreed with that ideology, or did not want to submit sovereignty to German invaders, you had to fight.

Now, the EU/NATO/WTO have an ideology and an expansionist agenda. If you disagree with it, you have to fight. Marginalised groups take this to extremes, as they have always done.

Even if you buy into the message Western governments are selling us, rememeber that not everybody does. Dissenting voices in this regard are seldom heard and feel geniunely threatened.

Rant over.

T

"To the various nay-sayers, including the fellow who mentioned the fact that the letter had been signed by (and I paraphrase) some bleeding heart liberals, clueless actors and Holywood "elite"."

Most of the signers were. Not all, but the majority were.

"This is important stuff America. If you don't want high brow intellectualising, then watch Statrship Troopers. If you can't see the cautionary tale in that, you're really in trouble."

It's this condescending, we-know-more-than-you attitude that turns off america to the left. The right has it's problems too, but if you want peopel to take you seriously, stop pretending you have a 180 IQ. It's funny, you claim to fight for the working man but you have the snobby attitude that rivals a blueblood socialite.

""Terror" is an enemy we can never defeat. The only thing the war on terror will bring is fear and repression to ordinary people. There is no such thing as an "axis of evil". It's complete bullshit."

Defeat? No. You are right. Never totally. But we can fight like hell to make sure attacks like this in the future will get caught before they happen. It seems as though your answer is to do nothing.

"In other words, don't believe the hype. When was the last time you talked to a Muslim?"

Uhm, yesterday. I'll see him tommorow too. Old friend of mine. Most people don't live in a bubble and have many friends of different religions and races. I guess you just assume most people with conservative views on some subjects are white and associate mostly with whites. Don't assume the reality of others is just like yours.

"Have you ever been to Syria? Iran? Iraq?"

No. The chance I would be attacked is far too great. However there are thousands of muslims in my neighborhood every day from these countries. Fancy that.

"Why do you think certain Muslim countries oppose Western cultures? Religion? Politics? Finance? Do you understand the issues?"

Most people do understand these issues. I certainly do. Muslim cultures oppose our culture because it is 1.Secular and 2.It works. It's never as complicated as you make it out to be.

"Isn't there anything to learn from these other cultures? Why are we so certain our political/social/economic structure is the only solution?"

Learn, hmm. Perhaps they can teach us more about family and religion. Of course this also includes the state-sanctioned oppression of women and absolutley no seperation of church and state. Er, Mosque and state.

"Are we right to effectively impose it by force (economic/military) on other countries"

This isn't a war we are fighting to kill communism. That is only an ideology. What we are doing now in teh middle east is simple: Stop the actions of terrorists and give them no chance to organize in other countries. We are fighting action with action, not ideologies with action.

"Now, the EU/NATO/WTO have an ideology and an expansionist agenda. If you disagree with it, you have to fight. Marginalised groups take this to extremes, as they have always done."

They have also always brought suffering to their own peopel too. Suicide bombers are only helping end the idea of a Palestinian state forever.

Stop playing radical and think logically.

In response to the Nicole the librarian's challenge to the validity of this article, I can say it is almost 100% certain that the article is a valid one. It is a signed statement, and the article reports multiple signatories. I'm not well-versed in UK defamation law, but the general principles are the same everywhere, and many of these signatories would have a decent case if the article were fabricated.

Standard practice when creating a statement like this would be to send it to every major news organization you consider likely to print it. I suspect it's "in the queue" at a lot of other organizations, but only the Guardian has deemed it newsworthy thus far. It may well be the only one that ever does, but according to this companion article at the Guardian (found on the same Google everyone uses, incidentally) "The statement, which the signatories hope will be published by the American media, says..." (my italics)

Thanks to Wil for being among the bloggers who have pointed this story out. Also in the recent Guardian story pool and of note is this painstakingly thorough exposition of some of the more obscure details of the Bush family's long history with big oil and energy companies.

Links to both stories and some information on the general decline of foreign news reporting in America on my site, for the terminally curious.

No HTML allowed in comments, apparently, so here's the URL for that companion article:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4433256,00.html

And for the big-oil exposition:

http://www.observer.co.uk/magazine/story/0,11913,738196,00.html

Here is an updated list of signers, at http://www.zmag.org/nion.htm

Presumably it took the Guardian a while to receive and verify, since this list says 6/11 (199 names) and the Guardian published 6/14 with about a hundred.

This site says it will update the names list periodically.

Worth noting: I'm at the U of Oregon, and one of the people now listed is an ordinary person from here, decidedly not a celebrity.

*head explodes*

Hmmm ... from reading a lot of the comments posted here, I've come to the conclusion that a lot of Americans are quite clearly insane and suffering from a massive superiority complex. I can't wait for the next round of attacks on some of your cities, because with your current attitude, it's surely going to happen.

One word says it all,crap

the internet will be one of the last havens for free speech in the next few years. Let's remember to keep it that way and NEVER vote for ANYONE who would censor it in any way at all, no matter what words about "protecting your children" they use to hide behind what they really want and that is control of information itself. OK? FINE. no go back to downloading porn.

Hi! I am doing a project for school and need to no what there cloths look like but mostley the kids cloths look like! Can you help me please!

THANKS,
Melissa

does anyone know if the UN gave the US permiaaion to go into Afghanistain
its for a homework assignment

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