Wil,
I completely agree with you! Some of the goings-on of the current administration are truly disturbing and must be addressed. Good for you for speaking out! :D

Brian

: gives Wil thunderous applause :

Sometimes, living in the Land of the Stupid as it seems I do, I feel like I am the only one who doesn't think Shrub is Mr. Wonderful Fearless Leader. I am not alone!

Morons.org did a piece on this as well. There is another article on there where the writer quoted John Ashcroft and responded with this little gem:

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" -Benjamin Franklin.

Of course, reading all the responses on Morons, the right-wingers are already debunking all of this has being non-existant liberal properganda. You know, for a bunch of guys who constantly complain about losing their Constitutional rights they sure are quick to roll over and show their belly when their own are the ones doing it.

Holy crap. Well, I for one wish to hold this up in the face of those in another blog comment threat who said that our rights to free speech were not imperiled. Where do think this will end folks? How far is too far when it comes to threats and intimidation against American citizens for expressing their opinions. My ancestors left England partly because they thought King George was oppressive of their rights. I have no intention of leaving my country because of this King George. I know I will get lashed for saying this, but I'm just about ready to join Michael Moore and demand that Bush resign. (Not that it will do much good with his approval ratings!) But he has not upheld his Oath of Office to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

Holy crap. Well, I for one wish to hold this up in the face of those in another blog comment threat who said that our rights to free speech were not imperiled. Where do think this will end folks? How far is too far when it comes to threats and intimidation against American citizens for expressing their opinions. My ancestors left England partly because they thought King George was oppressive of their rights. I have no intention of leaving my country because of this King George. I know I will get lashed for saying this, but I'm just about ready to join Michael Moore and demand that Bush resign. (Not that it will do much good with his approval ratings!) But he has not upheld his Oath of Office to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

Hey Wil,
Well, I'm Canadian over here, so I dunno what to say... but i'll trust you on the Bush issue!
We have Cretien and he's good sometimes.... but BAD too!
Lily

I agree completely. Just before Memorial Day, I wrote a piece on what makes someone a patriot. To me, one of the key tenets of patriotism is acknowledging your duty to question the practices of those in power. The idea that we should "keep quiet" to show our support and patriotism ... rubbish.

My husband and I have been looking for every piece of info we could get on this incident since reading Wil's post, and I would like to point out that we've come across a discussion of it on an obviously Republican message board, and even most of the people there are appalled and frightened by this event. The issue here is not whether any of us support George W. Bush, but the fact that those participating in what I have to say is probably the most peaceful and unobtrusive methods of protest I've ever heard of were subject to arrest and expulsion. This terrifies me to no end, and does nothing to placate any of my fears about where our society is headed. It would seem that the threat of terrorism has given our government the license to do... well pretty much anything.

Thank you, Wil, for posting those links. When our civil rights are at stake, it is important that our eyes be opened again and again.

M

We are definately not as hardline in enforcing a state of reverence for our leaders down here in Australia. Our media seem to revel in showing up our politicians when they deserve it (and sometimes when they don't...)and our cartoonists make sure we never take our pollies seriously. I love it. Noone has all the right answers, regardless of whether you've been voted into the top office or not - no amount of squelching other people's rights will change that. An interesting article. Thanx!

We are definately not as hardline in enforcing a state of reverence for our leaders down here in Australia. Our media seem to revel in showing up our politicians when they deserve it (and sometimes when they don't...)and our cartoonists make sure we never take our pollies seriously. I love it. Noone has all the right answers, regardless of whether you've been voted into the top office or not - no amount of squelching other people's rights will change that. An interesting article. Thanx!

*Roaring applause!!* Wil you Rock! I am almost wanting to name my first born after you. :D

You know, I find it interesting that so many people who are so eager to question "the establishment" are also so willing to take at face value what they read on the Net. C'mon people, wake up! Just because it says what you want to read doesn't mean you can put your critical thinking skills away!

If I'm not buying what the Administration is selling, and if I'm not buying what the networks are selling, it's going to take a hell of a lot more than a couple of website links to sources with ZERO credibility to convince me that this story is real. I'm not saying it isn't real, I'm just saying I haven't seen enough to convince me it is.

The first-person student account rang VERY false for me and I stopped reading when I got to the part about the state trooper watching him closely after the comment about Bush. Give me a fucking break. Do you REALLY believe this??

It's still America, folks, and if you think Bush sucks, yell it from the rooftops without fear of being dragged away in irons.

Most other conspiracy theories are at least more entertaining than this drivel...

And right now down in Hell, Dick Nixon is gnashing his teeth and muttering, "Protesters in Ohio? All he'll do is expel them? In my day, we had the national guard shoot them. Damn! I wish Islamic extremists had attacked when *I* was the President!"

And right now down in Hell, Dick Nixon is gnashing his teeth and muttering, "Protesters in Ohio? All he'll do is expel them? In my day, we had the national guard shoot them. Damn! I wish Islamic extremists had attacked when *I* was the President!"

Zeno has something to what he says....about maybe not buying too quickly into something we read. So implore Wil's fellow readers to help find some more supporting evidance before the FBI or CIA (aka shrub's thugs) hide it.

I agree with you Wil. I for one don't even follow polotic's but I've seen this kind of stuff before and it's wrong I tell ya!

....and post it here.

Actually, if you read the metafiler further down, there are excerpts from coverage run in the Associated Press and the Washington Post.

I will say, my gut first reaction was a bit stronger than if I had waited an hour before posting. (Always wait an hour after eating before you swim.) While there is no evidence that anyone related to Bush had anything to do with this blatant curtailment of the first amendment. Still it is alarming when our institutions of higher learning are participating in supressing dissent by threat of expulsion and arrest.

Yeah that was on our news. .Oh and way to mention Ohio man. Way to be

Oh and Bush is gay

It's a little thing called "respect". You may disagree with him but he deserves respect as much as everyone here thinks they deserve respect. The "turn your back" group didn't have to show up and disrespect him outright.

Mick Jagger, rock and roll star, was knighted yesterday for services to music. Bush not to be outdone awarded the National Medal of Honor to the Announcer at the Ohio State Commencement for calling for a "thunderous" ovation.

Later in the program several people were removed from the stadium for turning their backs on the president. Bush when asked if that wasn't a violation of their free speech rights said, "Hell No" I guarantee not one of them heard "Simon Says"

Wil,

I'm glad I'm not the only one who is not afraid to openly criticize the government, and encourage others to do so as well. That is what makes our country so great; we have the right to question our public officials. Keep it up, it will be worth it someday.

Dee

Two good points are raised:

1) While I believe it to be very likely that this event actually happened, it would probably be a good idea to maintain a certain amount of skepticism until at least one other person from this graduating class can confirm this story.

2) OSU is VERY culpable in the violation of several student's constitutional rights, and if one points a finger at the Bush administration, one should also point a finger at OSU.

Having said 1&2, my outrage at the steady and un-marked erosion of my constitutional rights stands.

>>wil said: When graduating students are subject to ARREST for an action like turning their backs on a person who they don't respect

>>lea said: It's a little thing called "respect". You may disagree with him but he deserves respect as much as everyone here thinks they deserve respect. The "turn your back" group didn't have to show up and disrespect him outright.

i usually stay out of this stuff, but i want to say this:

respect is NOT a right. it must be earned, and once it is earned it must be maintained.

i'm not talking about respecting every person as an individual with equal rights. that's a given. obviously. (redundantly.)

i'm talking about respect for a person's morals, character, actions, and so on. we should NOT have to automatically grant our respect or esteem to any person. it must be earned.

part of "freedom," etc etc etc, in a democracy, means being "free" to express disrespect as well as respect. again, obviously.

i'm not even american. i have never personally seen direct evidence for any of the accusations against either president bush and his admininistration, or the "left-wing liberals" (quit with the labels, can't we, please? rednecks. ;) ) who make the accusations... i can't judge any of that with any real backup. but respect is not a right, and if you disagree with someone's principles or actions, you are free to express that- whether he's the janitor or the president.

political correctness, fairness, and acceptance of differing beliefs are all well and good. but that shouldn't equate with diluting or reserving your own opinion of what is right and wrong.

(sorry for the long post.)

I read through this but I find that lately a lot of people are trying to dig up conspiracy theories but this nation isn't turning against us. I know it is something to be concerned about but some of the theories just are wild. I think in this instance something was taken way out of context and wasn't fully researched and someone wrote something for hits and ratings. But that's my humble opinion.

Let me start with a blanket statement: I do NOT like Bush. I didn't vote for him, I think he's running this country into the ground, and I am not one of those that stopped criticizing him after 9/11.

That having been said, I have to agree with Zeno above about finding credibility with the first person account of the OSU commencement. Similarly, I'm not saying it didn't or couldn't happen, but what disturbs me is the way that people are willing to take such things at face value, without question. Whatever happened to critical thinking?

After digging around this story for a bit, I found this quote posted from a AP filing:

"Bush was invited to speak at the Ohio State commencement by representatives of the graduating class. But immediately before class members filed into the giant football stadium, an announcer instructed the crowd that all the university's speakers deserve to be treated with respect and that anyone demonstrating or heckling could be subject to expulsion and arrest. The announcer urged a "thunderous" ovation for outgoing university President William Kirwan. Bush, too, was heavily applauded."

Yes, this sounds like the kind of bullshit thing too many colleges and universities are pulling these days. (Didn't Dennis Miller say something like, "In my day, colleges WERE the free speech zones" recently?) And sure, I can buy into the fact that they wouldn't want any openly critical or embarrassing displays against Bush. But that anonymous first person account was just too soupy.

For what's is worth, Wil, I don't think you're anti-American; I think you're about as American as they come (hey, you like video games, criticizing your government, and the word-fragment "hella"). My main point is: be careful of getting sucked into stuff you find on the Net, and NEVER take off your Skeptic Hat.

Hey ISABEL,

Preach on. thats all i got to say about that

Hey ISABEL,

Preach on. thats all i got to say about that

Wil,

I am a Bush supporter. However I believe every person has a right to express their opinion. The only anti-Americans are the ones calling you an anti-American for expressing your 1st ammendment rights. I live in Texas (yes the land where you can get a lethal injection on just about every street corner) and I believe there are many good qualities about Mr. Bush however with the good come the bad. I am completely with you on the privacy and freedom issues. I believe to many Men, women, mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, sons, and daughters have given up their lives to make our lives better. What the Bush Administration is trying to do is wrong. In a day like the day we live in everyone is afraid but giving in to terrorists is giving them exactly what they want. I believe to many americans have lost their lives to make this country what it is today. Preach on Wil we support you.
Josh Sol

Dear Wil --

I live in the Philippines -- a country that was once colonized, and is currently dominated by US foreign/political policy (for which state of affairs our government shares a good deal of responsibility). A country that, during World War II, saw Filipinos enlisting in the US Armed Forces because they were promised American citizenship if they fought for America (the Philippines was a colony of the US back then, and due for independence) -- men who gave up the best years of their lives during WWII, and as old and weary veterans, spent even more years in the United States working at any kind of job, just to get that precious "resident alien" or "blue passport" status -- so that they could send for their children and watch a new generation make a better life for themselves in "the land of the free". (Imagine a retired Colonel, 65 years old, a Bataan Death March survivor, working as a *security guard*!! But that's another story.)

Despite all the bad water under the bridge, many Filipinos continue to believe that America is the best place in the world to live in. When you report incidents like this one, it is scary to think that a "bastion of democracy" as the United States, can resort to repressive measures equal to anything employed in the Marcos martial law era.

I hope saner minds soon prevail over such actions. The peaceful expression of dissent is a healthy thing, whether in politics or in the family.

Than you, Mr. Wheaton, for coming out in support of the Constitution. As far as I am concerned, you have done more to fight terrorism than the entire Bush Administration and its stupid war in Afghanistan.

By preserving our freedom and democracy, we can defeat the goals of the terrorists.

Thanks for the link. Knowing is half the battle.
And now I know there is a battle.

I can tell you now as a distant observer in Australia; I and most of my friends think its all pure insanity. And what is worse is that the media doesnt have the guts to just call it plain old WAR.
It has to be a WAR ON TERRORISM. Oh... that must make it right. *note sarcasm*

This is a question of RESPECT. You may hate Bush (Wil), you make like him (me), but it is the position of President of the United States that should be respected. Those protesters are just ignorant, emotional fools, they hate Bush for no good reason. Yeah Bush beat the hell out of Gore, so F-ing what? Just because there weren't enough dead people and illegals to get Gore elected is no reason to hate Bush! They should respect the office of the President.
I know that Clinton almost destroyed any respect the office held, Bush has restored it nicely! After all smoking 'dipped' cigars, getting bj's under the desk while talking to forign leaders and commiting perjury is not enough to get expelled from office. What has Bush done for people to get so mad at him? NOTHING! It is just an illogical ideological hatred. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, or cigar if you prefer?
Let us not forget it is the Left (and titles are very good, thank you) that refused to support Israel in her defense from the "Palestian" barbarian animals, and the Right that expressed its support! Who are the fascists the new nazis? It is the liberal left and the A-rabs. Yes, the A-rabs have pictures of OBL in their houses, remind you of an AH we all know? This new axis of evil must be smashed, the terrorists=nazis and MUST BE KILLED! Got that kiddies? I think Bush, if anything is coddling them too much.
Oh yeah, Wil "move to Afghanistan" you "anti-American", you. lol;>

NEVER AGAIN!
LONG LIVE NYC, SUPPORT THOSE WHO SUPPORT HER!

"Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's Liberty Teeth and keystone under independence. To ensure peace, security, ans happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference. They deserve a place of honour with all that is good." - George Washington

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of firearms." - Thomas Jefferson

Respect or not, you should NOT be arrested for turning your back on someone! Assaulting him verbally or physically.. yes. But peacefully turning your back?

Sieg Heil!

WTF is this country coming to?

I challenge you to confirm this UNNAMED guy's account from a legitimate news source. They may have stated that if people DISRUPTED the event, then they would be expelled from it. This nonsense about being arrested for turning your back is, well, have you ever heard the term "urban legend?"

No one is going to be arrested for turning their backs. However, if they make an actual disruption that prevents the event from proceeding, that would be grounds to be kicked out or even arrested depending on the seriousness. If I came to one of your comedy shows and stood up and yelled through the whole thing would you say nothing and respect my "constitutional right?" If so, I challenge you to let anyone come to every one of your shows and disrupt the event and you promise not to have security throw them out!!!! Again, look to verify these silly urban myths before you publish them as fact!!!

Ah, MatrixRaven, I see you are practising for the next Liberal president.

I prefer to close with "Never Again", but you may end your thought how you wish, intersting it should be that!

Auf Wiedersien

LONG LIVE NYC!

Kind of reminds me of the left trying to be the thought police in a public institution as well. A "professor" at Berkeley, wrote the following course description for a class called "The Politics and Poetics of Palestinian Resistance." This is was the original description of the course. Please note the last sentence.

Course Description: Since the inception of the Intifada in September of 2000, Palestinians have been fighting for their right to exist. The brutal Israeli military occupation of Palestine, an occupation that has been ongoing since 1948, has systematically displaced, killed and maimed millions of Palestinian people. And yet, from under the brutal weight of the occupation, Palestinians have produced their own culture and poetry of resistance. This class will examine the history of the Palestinian resistance and the way that it is narrated by Palestinians in order to produce an understanding of the Intifada and to develop a coherent political analysis of the situation. This class takes as its starting point the right of Palestinians to fight for their own self-determination. Conservative thinkers are encouraged to seek other sections.

The left is at it as well with their agenda, Wil. They changed the course description of this class because of the public outcry. Sheesh, if you think a certain way, seek other sections. What a crock.

The Simon Wiesenthal Center had an article about it: http://www.wiesenthal.com/social/press/pr_item.cfm?ItemID=5711

Also, at the University of South Carolina, (snipped from an article)

"On Jan. 16, 2002, Professor Lynn Weber of the University of South Carolina’s (USC) Women Studies Program distributed a syllabus to the students in her seminar. Among other things, the syllabus included a list of “Guidelines for Classroom Discussion.” In order to participate in class discussion (20 percent of each student’s final grade), the guidelines ruled, students in Professor Weber’s class must first “acknowledge that racism, classism, sexism, heterosexism, and other institutionalized forms of oppression exist.” The guidelines go on to require that prospective students further agree that “we are all systematically taught misinformation about our own group and about members of other groups,” that “this is true for members of privileged and oppressed groups,” and that students must “agree to combat actively the myths and stereotypes about our groups and other groups.”

Quite a mouthful for the first day of class. The problem with all this is not so much that Professor Weber believes that institutionalized “racism, classism, sexism, heterosexism, and other institutionalized forms of oppression” exist (maybe, maybe not) nor even that “we are all systematically taught misinformation about our own group and about members of other groups” (a judgment from which one must suppose Weber generously exempts herself). The problem is that Weber proposes turning these exquisitely debatable propositions into articles of faith on penalty of a reduced grade. Believe otherwise — or so her syllabus would seem to suggest — and you will suffer the consequences."

Yep, McCarthy would be proud of both sides.

To combat this from either side, I personally read news from both points of view, listen to conservative and liberal news sources so I get a a well rounded version of the news. Then I feel I'm getting a good representation and can make up my own opinion from there.

Sorry for the long post...
Anne

While looking through Metafiler (cool site, by the way!) I found another apparent example. This one is to someone who is here on a visa and attended the same Mosque as Padilla when he was in Florida. They're holding him now on immigration charges, whatever that means. They haven't said that he's actually done anything, or really that he's THOUGHT of doing something. Here's what they have said:

"We have suspicions; that's it," a federal source told the Herald. "We are working hard right now to run this all out. We have reason to believe this man has extremist views. They were friends and they attended the same Fort Lauderdale mosque."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=578&e=5&cid=578&u=/nm/20020615/ts_nm/attack_dirtybomb_arrest_dc_1

Echoing a poster on Metafiler... Pardon me.... I was under the impression that holding extremist views was legal in America.

I'll hold my judgement on this until I hear more or until time has passed and we've heard nothing.

Oh, preemptive comment: Yes, non-citizens do enjoy Constitutional protections, although not all the rights of citizens, such as the right to vote.

You're on the way to end up like Nazi-Germany. All the signs are there. Do they not teach you history in school anymore?

On another note, just how was the US democratically elected to be protector of the 'free' world? When was the job of policing the whole planet officially handed over? And by whom? Who decides which countries are evil? Do the people get a say? Because that's what democracy is all about, right?

Just wondering...

No, I'm not anti-American, just asking questions.....

NYC:
People don't dislike Bush because he beat Gore (although that's something).

It's because he's an underqualified former crack addict who has about as much intelligence as my ancient neurotic terrier.

I am NOT exaggerating.

The Bush administration has taken great pains to hide the president's lack of higher intelligence, going so far as to script him making jokes about it in his heavily scripted speeches. He dodges important, controversial questions. He rarely speaks without a prewritten speech in front of him.

Please don't tell me he's the most qualified man in the country. I respect the office, if only because it's a powerful one, but there is no way in hell I can respect a man, a 'leader of the free world', who knows less about the world than most cheerleaders I know.

Ah yes Annie, History is the key here.
Once upon a time there was an Evil Empire called the Soviet Union. In an effort to prevent the destuction of the US and other free nations they banded together in something called NATO. These brave nations then defended weaker nations from the Communist hordes attempting to conquer the planet. Now we have evil people (terrorists)trying to kill everyone who doesn't squat like they do, to Allah. (Even some who do, but we wont get into that.) So, the US is trying to protect itself and her allies from the new hordes.

Got it? Probably not based on your question. But, good luck!

NEVER AGAIN!
DEFEND LIBERTY, DEFEND OUR RIGHT TO EXIST!

After reading this, i'm suddenly flashed back to some "suspected" "dirty-bomb" "terrorist" (lets see how many alarms i set off in the CIA's monitoring system with this one!) who has been held for 4 months now, WITHOUT being charged, and is an AMERICAN CITIZEN.

... Now, let me say at the moment that i'm as certin as anyone else that the mentioned person probably should NOT be on the streets and we are definatley safer with him in custody, but, my point is the same as Uncle Willies...

When our basic freedoms are trampled on for the sake of the "greater whole", or as Bush and company call it, "Homeland security" (isnt that what the national guard, CIA and FBI DO???!!!) its not so far a cry between some muslum looking character to act as a scape goat for Bush's ego and poll's, and our dearly beloved Uncle Willy or even yours truely being snatched up in the middle of the night for "turning our back" on our dear and wonderful leader.

Anyone got some spare barf bags from the airplane?? I feel a projectile coming up quick.

I would suggest that everyone reading this send a copy of that letter to their local news stations and even the national ones, hell, anyone who may listen-- (did someone mention Dinnis Miller??) Lets see what we can cook up eh?

Mike

Hi KJG, interesting initials. Much like the KGB, an evil arm of a communist state. Hmm, are you a communist? Do you like those who beat, tortured and killed American servicemen and allies of the cause of freedom? Probably not, it is likely just your initials.

Anyway, Bush has a Masters degree in History? Do you have a masters degree in... anything? Probably not, but you and your terrier so much smarter than W. Every smart politician uses a prepared speech, even Lincoln he kept them in his hat! Do you think he was dumb too?

NEVER AGAIN!

So this war on terrorism is NATO's then?? I don't see many NATO countries fighting in Afghanistan. When was the vote held in the NATO assembly to declare war?

I grew under the shadow of Soviet Comunism in a little country called Denmark. We are NATO too. But what is going on in the US now is not so very different to what the Russian people suffered under Soviet rule. No freedom of speech, arrest for dissent, secret police etc.
Stalin's Soviet regime was little different to Hitler's.
How will yours differ?

Hi Annie, while I greatly respect Denmark, the US was attacked and we do not need their help. No vote needs to be taken, the US was attacked we have the right and duty to defend our citizens from barbarians. I assume then the US should allow millions of her citizens to be slaughtered, until NATO says, "thats enough!" well bullocks to that, as my English friends would say. God Bless Britannia. One of our true friends. They understand who is Hitler, and it isn't Bush.
If you can't see the difference between the Soviets and the US then I pity you.

NEVER AGAIN! DEFEND FREEDOM!

NYC:
Yes, KJB=my initials.

You're so smart, being able to see the similarities to the former Soviet Union's intelligence agency's acronym and my name. Bravo. You've now hit the same level of intelligence as a 2nd grader.

I'm well aware most politicians use prepared speeches. My point is, the man doesn't speak without one. EVER. The difference here between Bush and say, Clinton or Lincoln, is that those men didn't RELY on the prewritten speech. They were both able to speak extemporaneously, and often quite well.

As for the "Communist hordes", I think you (Strabolgi) are overreacting. Indeed, the hordes of Muslims you so worry about aren't really hordes at all.

I refer the honorable Gentleman to the questions
I gave some moments ago.

And if you cannot see the direction in which you are headed, I pity you.

Give the man a cigar!

Though we (the UK population) could've told you what was going to happen 18 months ago. It's truly dispicable what Bush and his co-horts are up to over there at the minute. Though admittedly we have our own problems over here at the minute with a *President* who thinks that if he ignores people for long enough, the problems will go away.

I think this whole "new world order" shit is gonna spiral outta control just now, and we will really see change in the way we live our lives.

Remember when we used to talk of "the revolution"?

It's [really] just around the corner...

And Strabolgi:
Denmark also knew Hitler.

Do you understand what you are saying when you say "Defend Freedom", and then implicitly agree with the trampling of Constitutional rights the next moment?

The dichotomy astounds me.

Hey tunde -

The revolution will not be televised! :)

KJB, if you don't think that there are hordes of A-rabs waiting to kill us, then go to Iran and live a year with them and see how quickly they slit your throat like a hog.
If they aren't hordes then what would you call a group that have swayed destruction, erradicating civilization, after civilization and replacing those they executed with their own kind. For example Egypt, those living there today are nothing like the ancient Egyptians, why the 'muslims' killed them ALL. They want the same for all other civilized nations. They want to kill you and me and I find that offensive.

NYC

As for the whole Masters in History deal -

Did he have any idea where Afghanistan was? Does he know now?
Has he learned anything from history?
Does he remember the difficulties of fighting a land war in Asia?

A degree is something you can buy nowadays. I still have little respect for him.

Actually, NYC, President Bush Jr. has a Bachelors in History (Yale) and a Masters in Business Administration (Harvard).

Although I'm not sure either fact is terribly meaningful to this conversation.

NYC:
If you truly believe that all Muslims are out to kill all Americans, then I'm sorry. I'm sorry your world is that skewed.

The "A-rab" phrase merely shows your own ignorance and bigotry.

I hope you learn inner peace sometime, as well as history.

Historically, the Muslim expansion of its early years was carried out by military conquest, yes. But if you were a Jew back then, where was it safer to live? In Muslim areas.
During Europe's "Dark Ages", Muslim countries advanced the sciences and the arts, building upon the Greek texts that Westerners had seen fit to chuck out the window.

So don't you DARE tell me that all "A-rabs" are killers and propagators of an evil, parasitic, cannibalistic culture.

Hey, Wil... long time reader, first time caller. I am glad to see that people are not afraid of stating their true feelings about our "president". I myself voted for Nader. I am on a Rocky Horror cast here in wisconsin, and even we have a callback expressing our displeasure at the president... not too sure how many people here are familiar with this cult movie... but in any case, during the creation scene, Columbia says 'he's ok' Frank angrily responds 'OK?' (audience shouts "What do you think of George W Bush?") Frank then says 'I Think we can do better than that!' This usually elicits a lot of cheers from people. Sorry if this is offtopic, but I seem to think for some reason that it is related.

Thanks, BBROCK, for clearing that up :)

KJB, there is no f-ing dichotomy, these are incredible times, which require non-standard responses. That is why it is a WAR.
Again, they want US dead. What part of dead befuddles you?
What part of the world does Bush not understand, he made it very clear, you are with US or against US. Those who support killing US (terrorist) are the enemy, those who want to support those killing US, the A-rabs, are the enemy. Again terrorist=nazi!

Annie, we are headed in the direction of defending ourselves, if that offends you, don't come here, don't buy stuff from here. 'Nuf said.

NEVER AGAIN

Terrorist does not equal Nazi.

NYC, there IS a dichotomy. You say, Yes, fight for freedom. But you don't mind destroying freedom in order to do this. Don't you see?

There is no war. It is a war in name only; there has been no congressional declaration.

Please, for your sake, think about what you are proposing. If nothing else, contemplate calling someone an A-rab, and how that is a bigoted remark, especially when referring to a whole group as a murdering bunch of Nazis.

I wish I had more time to talk, but I've got to get some sleep.

Have the terrorists frightened you so much, NYC, that you would be willing to give up your right to free speech, to free thought, to many of the freedoms you and I take for granted, so that a percieved threat can be hopefully squashed?

Have you let them win?

Peace out, folks.

Being a Brit, I don't feel I have enough information to comment properly on Bush. So I won't.
However, recent events over *here* make me despair. When a government has one of the biggest majorities ever, you would expect it to feel fairly secure. But our present government has spent the past five years desperately trying to manage the press - while chastising us for being cynical and apathetic! Read about the latest sorry tale, still ongoing, at http://www.spectator.co.uk/article.php3?table=old§ion=current&issue=2002-06-15&id=1956
Grrrrrrrrrrrr.

No KJB, I don't believe that all muslims want to kill americans, just the 99.9% of them I call A-rabs, live I would say Nazi to describe someone evil. In case you haven't noticed A-rabs are funding homicide bombers to kill Jews, and training other A-rabs to kill me, that offends me okay? I don't want them to kill me, sorry.
I think you apty described them "killers and propagators of an evil, parasitic, cannibalistic culture." I would add satanic and pedophiles to that though.

NEVER AGAIN! NEVER!

KJB, good point about Denmark and Hitler.
My mother's uncle was tortured to death by the Gestapo for helping a jewish family escape to Sweden. Doubtles he would have been called a terrorist by the Germans (that word was invented much later) but to us and Denmark, he was a hero and a freedom fighter.
I, in no way condone terrorism, but to hear some of you talk...
Read 'Mein Kampf' and see what I mean.
Hitler as well as McCarthy would have been proud...
A dictatorship by any other name still stinks as bad.
*my apologies to the Bard*

Hey Wil, heres a little confirmation of that letter you came across...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020614/ap_to_po/bush_7

What freedom is being destroyed, the 'right' to swarm into the US undocumented. The right to plot to kill innocent civilians with a all types of devices, including radioactive ones. Sorry, someone plotting with terrorists=nazis, then I'm glad the Government is stopping them.
What you refer to as a right, is not it is simply a temporary measure, a little inconvience. I would rather see one guy inconvienced than 3000 Americans dead, sorry you don't.
As for the speech, who the hell knows, but those that want to be disrepectful to the guest speakers and graduates, who worked years to get their degrees should be ashamed. If they want to protest, go out side. Inside they should give the same respect, they would want. It is called common decency, which is not common today at all, how unfortunate!

CAN THE bin laden!

Annie, My Uncle fought the Nazis in the air force in France. He was brave but I consider your Great Uncle to be a hero! I'm truly sorry and sickened by what happened to your Great Uncle, his soul will surely forever reside in heaven. The evil nazis would have called him a traitor, but he IS a hero, and those like him too. I can not see a way anyone could be more brave.
Also, I tried to read AH's diatribe, but was too confused and bored to read it all. The pig was a terrible writer, so I didn't read it all. I hope that is okay? I don't think my body contains enough vomit to read the whole thing.
Please, McCarthy was a drunken fool - but AH was evil and you give him too much credit comparing to a moron like McCarthy.

CNN is also reporting that the crowd at Ohio State was told to behave or be arrested. It's in the last paragraph of this story.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/06/14/bush.ohiostate.ap/index.html

The problem I have with the coverage is that it is all the same and almost the same wording. Journalists tend to use other news reports as sources for their stories, which isn't good. So, I still haven't seen quite enough to be definitive about what actually happened.

You would think that someone would have had their camcorder going at the time and has captured it. So, I'm sure if it did happen the way the reports sound, we will know about it in the next day or so.

Off topic. Sorry. But since the war is the issue behind this issue, I thought people might be interested in this story from the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/16/opinion/16DOWD.html

QUOTE:

Classified investigations of the Qaeda threat now under way at the F.B.I. and C.I.A. have concluded that the war in Afghanistan failed to diminish the threat to the United States, the officials said. Instead, the war might have complicated counterterrorism efforts by dispersing potential attackers across a wider geographic area.

-----

I'd also like to point you to an interesting OP-N-ED piece, also in the NYT.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/16/opinion/16TRIB.html

Unbelievable, the nazis are coming back to power. Why do i even bother to vote?

I have a few points I would like to make"

1. College students, while intelligent, do not have the life experiences that many of us already have. I should know cause I was one of them. I can tell you that I had some stupid opinions at the time, mainly because I was young and just had not experienced the real world yet. I usually don't put too much stock in the opinion of someone who just moved out of mom and dad's basement and spend Friday nights getting wasted.

2. I agree that respect should be shown to any speaker at a college, be they the president or anyone else. If you have a problem with that person, don't go to the speech. Stay home, write you congressperson, create a website against their policies, or better yet, VOTE! To boo, hiss, or turn your back on someone speaking, especially one of your elders is not only rude, it's immature. Wow, immature behavior at a college. Imagine that. (Can someone say hazing?)

3. Finally, hecklers get booted from many events and no one ever cries that their Constitutional rights are being violated. If you go to a concert, a comedy club, any kind of speech and start causing trouble, security is going to kick your ass out.

Now I am not a big fan of Dubya, but I think this incident is being blown WAY out of proportion here. There are ways to behavior in a society and what some of these students did is just not it.

It is scarey to think that Bush claims to run the greatest democracy in the world and yet does this kind of thing. What worries me more is that here in the UK Tony Blair is going down the same road with his obsession for 'media friendly Tony' (now available with football for a quick kick-about and stylish Sven glasses for 'Ulrika appeal'). With this sort of thing going on how can we go out into the world claiming they must follow our act. We're all with Wil on this one I think.

http://www.livejournal.com/talkread.bml?journal=nonviolent&itemid=94232

I first heard of this from a person on Livejournal posting about their experiences at the event. According to the above account, there was no protesting, no heckling, no being loud or disruptive. They simply stood, and turned their backs when he began talking.

Hey Wil, I saw the same story at http://www.mediawhoresonline.com/

Check out this post. http://www.safesearching.com/boards/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=221&t=000340

At Bill Maher's new forum board.
http://www.safesearching.com/boards/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=221

Well, this is interesting. It's the article from the Ohio State student newspaper. It's about the protest. But there is no mention of the announcement. I'm wondering if we've been had. I guess time will tell. Someone had to have a camcorder going.

http://thelantern.com/news/255720.html

Sinkerhawk, you wrote:

"College students, while intelligent, do not have the life experiences that many of us already have."

College students are not all starry-eyed 22 year olds who've never held a job more taxing than part time work at the mall. It's 2002 and they come from all ages and all life experiences.

"I had some stupid opinions at the time, mainly because I was young and just had not experienced the real world yet."

Be that as it may, unless you personally know all the people involved and feel qualified to judge the validity of their opinions...

"If you have a problem with that person, don't go to the speech."

Sounds like the people who said "if you have a problem with a prayer being read at graduation, then don't attend graduation."

Graduation is about the graduates, first and foremost. For them and often (for the most part) paid for by them, even. It's not about the speaker.

"To boo, hiss, or turn your back on someone speaking, especially one of your elders is not only rude, it's immature."

Elders and ergo betters? Then maybe everyone here should report their age and whoever's the oldest should then be allowed to take the floor and lead the discussion without "immature" dispute?

Being an older person, I'd love to rest on that laurel, but I'm old enough to know age doesn't mean ca-ca. It's what you've done with it.

It's not "immature" to dissent. Sometimes the rationale is weak, sometimes the method is unnecessarily disruptive, but protesting in itself is not immature. In fact, choosing to silently turn away from a person is one of the most "mature" forms of protest I can imagine.

"hecklers get booted from many events and no one ever cries that their Constitutional rights are being violated."

Sometimes they do, as it happens, but is turning away from a person the same as heckling? Forget that, is it appropriate to be told that the years, money, and effort spent working to earn a degree will be made null and void and that you'll be subject to criminal prosecution if you turn your back on a government employee?

"There are ways to behavior in a society and what some of these students did is just not it."

These "ways" are enumerated in legal documents, not an individual citizen's ideology. Please cite your source for the behaviour at Ohio State being unlawful, or better yet, unconstitutional.

Wil,

Our country has slowly been sliding toward our present Police State since the Reagan era. It began subtly with the stripping of teen-agers rights - in the name of what was best for them, of course - and we stood by, casually, apathetically, and we said, "Maybe the government is right. Maybe sixteen is too young to smoke, or eighteen is too young to drink, or maybe curfews are, indeed, the answer, or the right to peaceful assemblage IS actually trespassing and loitering after all. Perhaps the police NEED more authority to pull people over, randomly, and harass them, since, after all, a young person out after ten is criminal, or a motorist at 2 a.m. must be drunk, or a nonwhite in a white neighborhood HAS to be grounds for suspicion... but, just in case, there's always that "crossed the double-yellow line" excuse... (Hey, the cops got away with the Rodney King thing, right?) Grr.

(As a man who is half Puerto Rican, I can say this. I have been pulled over 17 times in the last three years. I have yet to get a ticket. 50% of the time I've been asked, "Sir, whose car is this?" True story.)

We thought, just maybe... we need the government to show us the way. After all, parents don't know how to parent anymore. (That person spanks her child!) We're ignorant to interpersonal relationships. (All men cheat on their wives! I saw it on Young & the Restless! He's gay! That's it! They're what's wrong with the world! Why didn't we see this before? Because, you idiot! There was no Oprah before! Duh! Or Geraldo, or Ricki, or Montel...)

We have become what we have allowed ourselves to become, as we've been conditioned to be, to look on other people, other ways of life, or other lifestyles, "abnormal activities", our neighbors, with 1950s' paranoid suspicion. We're the ones who allowed the government to take us by the hand and say, "Come this way. You're not living right. Neither is your neighbor. We will show you how it's done. The right way. And, hey, if your neighbor isn't with the program, let us know, okay? We'll... help him see the light. We have a whole army of social service workers to teach them..."

And we all went, like SHEEP, because the government became the keeper of our conscience, and because the media were the teachers of our morals, and television showed us how we were supposed to be living, and as long as we stayed in line and kept our blinders on, the world was just as rosy and peachy as they told us it would be. And we traded our personal liberties for the sake of our children and our nation.

(Tell me, does neighborhood watch translate to spy on your neighbor?)

And the sensationalist media demonized everything about people's lives, using crack, AIDS, and even "out of wedlock" pregnancy as broadswords - amongst many others - to keep us off guard and to justify vulgar invasions of privacy until slowly, methodically, we were a twisted paragon of what political correctness called "normal", with a whole library filled with new laws designed to keep everyone and everything in check.

And WE wielded those broadswords proudly as we all chanted "Just say no!" or "Just do it!" and helped the government "fix" what was wrong with this country... by eliminating things that were different, or that we didn't understand, or that we believed were wrong, under the guise of what was BEST for America.

And little by little, either violence or apathy replaced weekend beer parties, and guns and gangs became the norm for our kids. And music became the psychopathic representation of the times. And we became the inheritors of a stone-fisted, black and white society without the gray area where the oxygen used to be. We tolerated the loss of individuality with the same ease we allowed a man to deface the office of the Presidency, as we are now allowing this massive, Big Brother Government of OUR OWN creation strip us of what little liberty we have left. This is NOT the beginning, Wil. We are at the top of the mountain looking down on all we trampled when we allowed the government to lead us here.

(I liked it better when everyone minded their own damned business, personally.)

Yet remember... all we had to do to get here was turn away from others as THEIR rights were slowly whittled away, while we basked in the good life the economy was providing. But, as we were told, it was for the good of the many to repress a mere few...

... and to our eternal shame, we believed them.

George W. Bush is not the beginning of this, he's the apex. We are, as I said, at the top now. If we were moral, we would have held Bill Clinton to a higher standard.

(Like it, or not, we allowed a President to commit perjury, and we even justified it for him in the name of "privacy", as if the man was more important than what the Office of the President stands for. Was the battle with Nixon not partly over our right to know that what's being done behind closed doors is TRULY in the best interest of the nation, that our voices are being heard, and that the PRESIDENT is NOT above the LAW? I'm not debating this. The man MUST live up to the responsibility... and GWB has to, too.)

Wil, if we were a society that cherished liberty, we would have fought hard for the rights of others long before the "Goose-steppers" made it to our door. Do you not yet see where we are at this moment in time in our country?

"... and when they came for me, there was nobody left to say anything."

Here is some food for thought, my friend:

You said:

"If we allow the Bush Administration to goose-step all over our civil rights, and we sit back quietly while Ashcroft dances all over the constitution, we no longer have a country worth fighting for."

Consider this instead, because we've already been doing all THAT since 1980:

Perhaps... this is exactly the time to START fighting... before there really is no one left to say anything.

Yours with Regards,

JJ Christopher

WHOA!
Bush has been a thorn since the Florida voting massacre. The Republican voting intitiative hit an all time low when valid votes were not counted, yet they gave cigarrettes to homeless people to get their vote.
We are even unlucky enough to have his brother for Govenor. C'mon Reno!

Hi people.

I read the article you gave us the link to the other day, Wil. Thanks. I have to tell you guys something. My opinion.

I still remember when I saw the twin towers that day, and I still remember the pain when I saw such a tragedy. I couldn't really understand it. I can't understand why people have to be so mean to each other. Why we have to kill each other. I've never understood the wars.

I WANT peace. I want to say that I'm not happy about Bush and his politics. I do understand that some of the Americans wants revenge, but I can't understand why we have to bomb a country because of this. Innocent people are also living in Afghanistan. Young people, children.

Is this right? To kill people? We say that it's wrong to kill people, but still we kill back? I don't think that justice is done with murder.

We're all a part of this, and even though many people died September 11, many other people died other places too. If we could only find another way out of this. If we could stop the war. We have to stop the war, before it's too late. Through the years we have managed to make it almost impossible to find another solution than war, and it really hurts me. We gotta stand together, before we can do something about it.

I'm not telling negative things about the Americans. I'm telling all that if we have to stop war and cruelty we have to stand together. We have to think of another solution than war.

It won't help to bomb Afghanistan. They will only get mad. They are already angry I'm pretty sure. Osama Bin Laden and the others should have thought about what would happen. When they planned the attack on WTC. It would only make the Americans angry. It's clear that the Americans are angry and hurt, but if we keep on bombing each other we could go on forever. If we keep on killing each other the peace will never come. We gotta stop this.

"Run to the rescue with love and peace will follow" River Phoenix

Take care.

Peace, Helene

I know we are not supposed to use this comment area as a BBS, and I promise this will be the last time I do so, but I just can't stand by and let some of these things be said without responding.

To those who are crying out that it is a matter of respect, and that the President deserves respect, I would say this:

As President, a great part of his duty to us, the people of this country who elected him and pay him to do his job, is to uphold the constitution. The right to disagree with our leaders and to peacefully demonstrate that is constitutionally protected, and as far as I am concerned once he has disrespected the constitution he forfeits any right he ever had to respect from me or anyone else who treasures their constitutional rights. Those rights are, after all, what makes this country great.

The office of President is an elected one, and his duty is to us, not the other way around.

M

I'm glad Wil takes the time to post about stuff like this, to post what is true and right. That's why I think it's an opportune time for him to make up on a promise that he's broken. Last year he posted a story about Bush sending money to the Taliban that I informed him was not true. He kindly thanked me and said he'd look into it. No correction was posted. Further emails were not responded to. But now would be a great time to post the truth.

Wow - lotta confusion in this thread - and even one guy posting under two names - must have trouble getting his point across I guess.

Let's see now; War on Terrorism, War on Drugs, War on Poverty, War on Inflation - hmmmmm how many wars can we maintain at any one time? I find it odd that we can fight in conflicts and lose thousands of lives a month and calmly refer to it as a "police action", then invade a dusty defeated, disorganised and mostly destroyed country and call it a "war" in which the highest number of allied casualties was the result of our own "friendly" fire.

What happened on 9/11 was an evil act, but once that act had occurred there was a need for greater consideration prior to action.

WHAT? you say, and let those bastards get away?

Well sorry, but we rushed it and they DID get away, the small fish we have behind razor wire in Cuba were ours for the taking anyway.

And a little thought as to WHY people hate us so much would not go astray - it is not just because they are "A-rabs" and we are amaericans (and who by the way are you defining as an "A-rab"? Iranians? - Persian, Afghans? - afghan, turks? - turkic, Somalis? - African, Pakistanis? - various tribes from indian subcontinent.)

I could go on, but I truly believe that if people were able to use the brains that god givt'em then we would not be in such a fine pickle of a discussion.

THINK, the thoughts you are afraid to think
READ, the words you do not agree with
SPEAK, your mind without fear
ACT, to all with compassion
SEE, the truth that ALL humans must be given the same rights and opportunities and that OUR way is not always the best way.

I will stand when Mr Bush enters a room because he holds the office of President of the United States of America, but if he wants respect then he will have to earn it, because I too share the planet with him and my life and rights are equal to his.

Shari, I disagree with just about everything you said. Big surprise. I know that if I was giving a speech, I would be very offended if people came to it just to turn around and ignore me. It's an insult in the most childish form. I did not like Clinton at all, but when he came near my hometown to give a speech, I would never in a million years gone out to insult him or belittle him in any way. That's just how I was raised. I would disagree with what he said or did, but I would never insult him in person.

I also consider age to be a big factor in life experiences. I've been out of college for about ten years now and my whole attitude has changed. I have begun to realize that a lot of the things I believed in were because of my own ignorance and youth. I still say that college students are the last group of people I would look to for guidance in life AND politics.

You are right, it is not against the law for a person to heckle or ignore someone giving a speech, but it is well within the rights of the school to remove and expel disrespectful students, especially if the school feels that their actions go against the moral structure that the university is founded on. Legally, I have the right to call you names and make fun of you on this forum. The police will not arrest me, the FBI is not going to haul me in, but Wil can censor me, he can remove my post, he can ban me for life. That is his prerogative because this is HIS forum just like Bush's speech was on the SCHOOL'S grounds. If I invited someone over to a party and you came to make fun of them or insult them, you better believe you would be out sitting on the street in no time.

Just because I can legally do something does not make it right.

Ok, who was arrested? Anyone?

Did Bush or his officers escort people out, or was it the school?

I can't defend Bush here, because according to all the links, HE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING TO ANYONE.

On the other hand, when Clinton spoke, and anyone protested, he DID have them arrested. The secret service arrested numerous people, and he even had the irs audit them.

Wil. I'm disappointed in you. I thought you were a little more fair minded. But it seems you, and many people here, are eager to see the worst, even when it isn't there.

Ok, who was arrested? Anyone?

Did Bush or his officers escort people out, or was it the school?

I can't defend Bush here, because according to all the links, HE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING TO ANYONE.

On the other hand, when Clinton spoke, and anyone protested, he DID have them arrested. The secret service arrested numerous people, and he even had the irs audit them.

Wil. I'm disappointed in you. I thought you were a little more fair minded. But it seems you, and many people here, are eager to see the worst, even when it isn't there.

Well, this topic is all over the place now and some of the points being raised are completely ridiculous. Nazi Germany? Police State? Please. Things are far from perfect in this country, but it's still the best damned place to be if you want to think and act FREELY. I don't know, people here (and everywhere) seem to eat up this hyperbolic BS with a spoon, but when you mention Nazis and police states, you lose me and your point (if you have one) is immediately sent to the Null & Void Department.

Anyway, back to what I hope is still the issue...

In reading the links I saw in subsequent posts, all I can see is reference to the announcer suggesting that Bush receive a "thunderous ovation." I can now see that the conspiracy theorists MOST LIKELY took this admittedly poorly considered phrase and ran with it. I doubt that the rest happened, but at least I can see where it started. We'll see. I still admit the possibility it MIGHT be true, but I'm now more skeptical than I was before.

I don't know which is more ridiculous, that people take the time to try to make these things up, that other people buy them so readily, or that still others take the time to look into it and post on it trying to convince others that The X-Files is fiction and the sky is not falling.

Actually would it have mattered if it was GWB or the President of the Local Knitting Guild? If people have a right to protest, then that should be respected no matter who the speaker - from the sounds of the planned protest it was unobtrusive - no heckling etc.

I object to loud heckling or interjections simply because freedom of speech also needs to be extended to the person you are protesting against - and it also marks you as a rude individual who does not want to hear an opposing viewpoint.

If students and others were removed for simply turning their backs, then that is truly crass.

If Clinton had people removed for protesting, then he is equally guilty.

I want to comment on M's post:

"As President, a great part of his duty to us, the people of this country who elected him and pay him to do his job, is to uphold the constitution. The right to disagree with our leaders and to peacefully demonstrate that is constitutionally protected, and as far as I am concerned once he has disrespected the constitution he forfeits any right he ever had to respect from me or anyone else who treasures their constitutional rights. Those rights are, after all, what makes this country great.
"

Bush never stopped people from using their 1st amendment rights. You want to protest bush's speech, go right ahead, but do it OUTSIDE. You have the right to protest, but not in someone else's property while they are holding an event. Do it outside. Then no one gets upset.

But be careful. If you protest while Clinton is speaking, you WILL get arrested, even if you do it outside.

I wish you folks would actually see some of the things that Clinton did. You folks never said one word during Clinton's incredible abuses. But one school ejects students when they protest inside the auditorium during the presidential speech, and the world is ending.

Btw, the school didn't order anyone to applaud. They requested it. I saw the other articles. But the one on the democraticunderground.com MUST be true, right. They would NEVER have a bias on things. Oddly enough, even that article couldn't put too bad a spin on things. The worst they managed to say is that the speech stopped until a standing ovation occurred. Big deal.

Is this some phenomenon of the Internet? If you expect me to BELIEVE something, then prove it! Show me the proof about Bush. Show me the proof about Clinton. The fact that you expect what you type onto a messageboard to be taken as fact, shows me that you believe what others type into a text box.

George Bush is a Yeti! Why isn't anyone talking about that? There, I typed it. Do you now believe it?

It's ridiculous! Look into things, do your research, think critically, and question EVERYTHING! And if you expect me (and God help us if not EVERYONE else) to believe that what you say has validity, back it up! While I'm sure you are a nice person who is completely trustworthy, give me some corroboration for your statement.

My school had CIA director Tenet. If you wish to hear about the long and dubious history my school has with the CIA, email me. If I was graduating this year I would have had my diploma mailed to me. And, my mommy would have supported me 100%.

Well, I cannot support or deny the validity of the event in this article.

But I will tell you this: The security additions added post Sept 11th where I work does include "Speaking out against any policies of the current administration" as a direct violation of security policy. Any person violating this (and other far more sensible precautions) will be reprimanded up to termination, arrest and indictment.

Figure someday I'll be arrested for coming here, but maybe, just maybe they have bigger fish to fry than I....

Thank You for posting this, it is truly unbelievable that this sort of thing is still possible in our country. This really makes me sick!
Hope you don't mind but I passed this on to greenlight as well!

*still in shock*

*sigh*

I think if is quite sad that people are flaming each other in the GUESTBOOK, of all places. This is where you put your thought on what the webmaster put up on HIS site, which he opperates with his own funds. If you really want to get into a flame war, please do it elsewhere.

As African American writer, James Baldwin, wrote in Notes of a Native Son: "I Love America more than any other country in the world, and exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually."

I live by that sentence. It would be nice if everyone did. But this is America, one should be able to choose to live their life however they want as long as it doesn't cause "actual injury" to others (as opposed to emotional injury, which is what happens when people want to end recognized rights--i.e. free speech hurts their feelings, gays offend them, or they don't like action movies therefore nobody should be able to make or watch them).

The U.S. is based on the people, not a king, emperor, god, or president. James Madison believed that it was necessary to have many factions in a large republic to prevent tyranny. It is intrinsic that the U.S. have people who oppose, criticize, and monitor the government and interest groups.

The course description, mentioned in an above comment, for UC Berkeley was not written by a real professor (from my understanding) and it was recently changed. Yes, there are liberals who can be as stupid as conservatives. But the fact that there are some liberals who wish to stifle expression does not make conservatives--or *anybody*--right in restricting forms of expression.

I'll leave you with two quotes from an unknown (not famous) UC Berkeley political science professor (Prof. Sperlich): "Freedom means nothing unless you have the freedom to be different" and "free speech can be unpleasant but we should endure it for the freedom."

My thanks go to you as well Wil....thanks for posting this stuff....
you're not the only one that has these opinions..
we do to...

hell, I'm Canadian, and i agree with you...
cheers wil, and keep it up...

I must say to those who asked for more evidence, you people need to pay more attention to media. I'm not talking internet media but CBS news, CNN, Washington post, local news etc. becuase hey folks this was on my local news in a small town in Illinois for Gods sake. Its not even a liberal news paper. I hear so many people whine about people who question the administration or government, and most of the time those people only have a glimpse at what the real issues are. I notice America doesn't seem to pay to much hard time in expanding there knowledge of events and just go at face value.
As a concerned American I read and watch media from all around the country and the world. There are many things senators, not just Bush, are doing wrong. Senators are "war profiteering" from Bush's new anti-terrotist bill, asking for millions of dollars in their own private projects such as restoring gradens in Florida from becoming a Nudist colony. And no one seems to realize there is no declared war here it cant be declared by the presidentafter more than Ninety days. No one seems to notice that in most news reports the military has complained of Bush's strategy which at this point has stretched most military branch's thin and has left several security gaps. No one seems to care Ashcroft spent thousands of dollars to cover a nude statue or that Bush spends 4.1 million to constantly visit Texas in a time of crisis where are national budget is extremely tight? I mean come on Bush may not be the best president or the worse but pay attention to our country damn it. Thats the responsibility we have as citizens. This is the peoples country we have become so adjusted to others running it we just take things at face value, come on put some effort in protecting both security and liberty of this nation pay some attention read, watch, listen, and get involve.

Ps heres a little quote about free speech:
WITH THE FIRST LINK, A CHAIN IS FORGED, THE FIRST SPEECH CENSURED, THE FIRST THOUGHT FORBIDDEN, THE FIRST FREEDOM DENIED CHAINS US ALL IRREVOCABLY.

If you've got as far as the bottom of this comment list then well done! I've read them all.

I'm not American, I'm British so you may disregard my views. You US lot have something Brits dream of (a written consitution), and for goodness sake use it. We've got our own problems in the UK with Bush's lapdog (Tony Blair) but arresting people for excercising their constitutional rights is illegal.

As for 'Strabolgi's comments on A-rabs, my father has worked in Iran and Iraq for a UK company and he's still alive. I have many Arab friends and they are kind and would go out of their way to help you.

Michael J Martin (composer)

Folks,

Lots of interesting comments here -- but also a lot of mudflinging and charges/countercharges.

Didn't anybody ever hear of the old Usenet dictum: write it down, save it to a file, then go take a pee. If, after you're done, you still think the words truly represent you and your thoughts, then go ahead and post 'em.

It's my take that Wil puts this stuff up for us to read and think about. It's not his responsibility to PROVE anything to you -- if you use one tenth of the brains Gawd gave a hole in the ground, you'd figure out how to go out and look things up for yourself to your own satisfaction. That's the nature of thought-provoking commentary -- it's stuff that you THINK about and then go out and learn more on your own.

Don't like what you read about Monkey Boy in the White House? Then go find out some more -- that's what libraries and news sites are for. Read as much as you can and take into account that EVERYBODY has a point of view and that what they say is filtered through that POV.

Sometimes we forget that and just make generalizations based on silly-ass stuff like the fact that they come from a certain country or social class or political party or have a certain gender. While those might be predictors of how someone thinks, they aren't iron-clad proofs. To find out how a Muslim thinks, talk to one. Hell, talk to a bunch of 'em. Read the writings of a bunch of 'em.

I can just about guarantee that no two Muslims think alike. Just as no two Republicrats see the issues the same. Not everybody who works in a corporation is a droid waiting to screw over your Aunt Hattie. Not everyone who identifies themselves as Christian is good and pure and not every Muslim is out to kill folks.

Well, enough of this. As far as I can tell, everybody's thoughts are provoked. When's the learning gonna start?

**CHEERS**APPLAUSE**

Thankyou for posting those links, Wil. I always figured Bush must be a reincarnate of Hitler, now I'm sure of it! I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who feels the same way I do.

Shrill political rhetoric is not what I come to this site for.

Although I agree you have the right to say and feel anything you want, Wil, I disagree with you turning your web site into a political discussion board.
Again, it's your site and you certianly have the right to do whatever you want with it. But in MY humble opinion, for those of us to whom your beliefs leave a bad taste in their mouths, it may cause us to follow that student at Ohios graduations lead and turn their backs on you.

this sounds suspiciously like what happened back at kutztown university in january 1995. i was a sophomore and we found out one day that bill clinton would be speaking in our field house. the administration bulletin about the event mentioned something to the effect of "protestors will be dealt with accordingly". i don't remember the exact wording but i remember being outraged. students were told that they were being given priority to see him speak. so my roommmate and i got in line at 5:30am two days before the speech to get tickets. had to skip my first class because we didn't actually receive our tickets until 9:30. so at 6:00 am on the morning of the 10:30 speech, we got in line. at 9:30, when the doors opened, students were held at bay while we watched busload after busload of special interest groups being led in first. when they were all inside and seated, approximately 100 students were let inside. needless to say, students were outraged after standing outside in the freezing cold in january in pennsylvania only to be cast aside in favor of less volatile voters. so if you think for a second that this is soley a republican tactic, you're wrong.

Wil...

I will give you there are some bad things going on. But why would you bring your CHILD to someplace where you are going to PROTEST. The only reason to bring your CHILD to a PLACE like that is because you need to use her as a DEFENSE. How weak is that person. What a LOSER if you ask me.

It would havent have mattered if it was GW or BC as president. They would have recieved the SAME warning.

I dont think you have been anti american, you are just speaking your mind. But, look at ALL THE FACTS before jumping on this guys bandwagon.

Thanks, Wil. It's pretty ironic that you'd be the one to stumble across this stuff, busy as you are! But I'm glad you do, because who else is gonna tell me? The TV news? Funny, everybody seems to cheer for Bush on the TV. Funny how that works.
I've forwarded some of this information to my Mom- she's not very political and holds to a 1950s sort of political closedmindedness, BUT... she went to University of Michigan. Which happens to be the BIG RIVAL of Ohio State. They have a slogan, 'OhHowIHateOhioState'.
That's one way to get people to pay attention ;) 'hey, look what your big rival school did!' That's one way to break through a refusal to see reality. And in being mad at Ohio State, a little door might open so the next time she sees something like 'Bush stormtroopers demand standing ovation at gunpoint, criminal not-applauders arrested and held in dark dungeons somewhere', only for real, she'll not instinctively see 'stormtroopers and dark dungeons' and might actually see what's REALLY happening. Which is not, currently, as bad as shipping people off in boxcars to be gassed- but that sort of thing took time to develop, didn't it? And I do know that my Mom is very well educated on WWII history.
Again, thanks Wil. Keep it up.

...and hang on a second. If Clinton does this too, that means that no matter which mainstream political party you side with, they are doing this stuff.
Isn't that a PROBLEM?

Part of the reason the warning to comply or be arrested strikes concern is historical context. Did colleges make similar statements when Clinton was pres? I don't know. Probably. Maybe. Was it wrong? Yep. Would I have been pissed off about that. You bet. Did I hear about it? No.

But we currently have a political environment that makes such action by the administration of the college an outrage. We have an administration that has joked about how it was too bad this isn't a dictatorship. The have also warned (not a joke) that Americans should watch what they say and that people who disagree with the Whitehouse and raise questions about free speech and due process give ammunition to terrorists. It's a group of people who have been shrouding the everday workings of the government in secrecy and hiding parts of it in secret bunkers in the form of what THEY call a Shadow Government--a Shadow Government that does NOT include legislative or judicial branches.

It's no wonder some of us are getting a bit nervous, if not outraged.

Wow.

There's an awful lot up there to follow! I saw this link the other day on Fark. I think that the President of OSU must be an idiot for making remarks like that. Graduation is for the graduates, regardless of whether we believe in their personal politics or not. Threatening them with arrest, expulsion and the loss of their diploma was probably the best lesson in life that they ever received at that school. Those in power dictate what goes, and freedom of speech belongs only to those we say it does. If the grads decide this needs to change, well see. I wonder if any Alumni organizations have questioned the judgement of making a statement like this as well.

I think it is despicable that some people are pushing hatred in the name of NY. I'm from NY, and I had people there at the WTC when it went down, so don't push your bs on me. What happened that day was terrible and despicable, but the terrorists aren't the only ones responsible. The FBI and CIA seem more interestesd in finding ways to blow their own horn rather than cooperate with each other and actually protect the people of this country. In my opinion this makes them guilty of treason and makes them an accomplice to all the murders that day. If they did their jobs properly then 9-11 may not have happened, or at least on that scale. Besides we wouldn't have to defend against them if we weren't meddling there for as long as we have. If people want help, let them ask for it. We really need to reevaluate our allegiances over there. Israel is just as brutal as the Palestinians. There are no "good guys" there, just a lot of people convinced they are right no matter what.

Funny how the "dirty bomber" popped up right as Congressional hearings concerning the lack of disclosure of important materials and documents by the FBI and CIA and Justice Department are going on isn't it?

Just something to think about.

I am also a Canuck, But I can and do agree with the problem with Bush. I can't believe that America has a leader who is worse in more ways than the Canadian Prime Minister. Don't let the guy trample on freedom of speech America, if that goes, what's next?

It seems you are all instantly jumping to the conclusion that these students were told this as a new policy. If this was a new university policy and affected every speech given there, I would be concerned. But have you considered the other possibilities of why someone told the students this? If I was part of the faculty at the school, I would be terribly embarrassed if my students turned their back on Bush. Now I would not tell them they could not do it or threaten to arrest them. However, people easily get swept away with emotion and anger when a huge event for them will be interrupted. It would be very easy to understand someone exaggerating the threat of what would happen if they were embarrassed.

People often make grandiose statements or threats when they are angry or threatened themselves. You must take this into consideration when considering this story. This could also be a precaution. It would be very easy to hide something underneath a graduate robe and even easier to conceal what you are doing when not facing someone. I think the former is ahelluva more likely than the latter though.

Please think about the situation and the human factor when statements like this are made. Look at the timing, intent, and strength of the statement. Are they making this a new rule at every graduation or is this just for this once? Of course everyone has their rights. Hell, you have the right to bear arms and shout threats at the president too. That doesn't mean you can show the president your new loaded shotgun as you tell him how much you hate him.

Cmon. This should only be an issue IF students were actually arrested or expelled. Bitching about rights being taken away should be saved when and if a pattern develops. There is a huge cry of wolf coming from the leftists in this country and god save us all if a wolf ever does show up since no one would be listening by then.

And to think my Step daughter actually considered attending that school! I am ashamed of my birth state today. Thank you Wil for posting this on your site. This is an outrage.

Process for posting on WWDN:

1. Read liberal post on front page
2. Read first 10 responses or until you come upon one by Wil himself.
3. Read slogan by Wil "You are either with us or against us", etc.
4. Post first line thanking wil for being so "brave" and posting something so "subversive" on his website.
5. Hope wil reads your post and becomes your friend.
6. Read the liberal posts (Read: 95% of posts), agreeing with them all.
7. Find first post with a different viewpoint.
8. Get worked up. Assume this person is an ignorant and brainwashed American. Never hurts to assume they are racist too.
9. Post a reply using one of the following: A viewpoint that has already been said 10000 times, an out of context phrase from John Ashcroft or Bush, a comparision of bush to hitler, or the Benjamin Franklin quote about not sacrificing freedom for safety.
10. Feel really damn good to have so many people agree with you.

Repeat steps 7 through 10 until you realize you have wasted, er spent 4 hours on WWDN. Rock On!

Dale, you said:
"Cmon. This should only be an issue IF students were actually arrested or expelled. Bitching about rights being taken away should be saved when and if a pattern develops."

I disagree. It actually doesn't matter if anyone was arrested or expelled. The purpose of the statement was to put fear into people who would otherwise feel free to express themselves (even if they do make asses of themselves in the process). Quashing dissent really only takes a credible threat. And given the environment of having the President and Secret Service, police, etc. it's not that unreasonable to believe that they did intend to carry out the threat.

And since I referred to the John Ashcroft quote, I ask you under what context that comment was ever acceptable?

I've seen LET'S ROLL!™ and NEVER AGAIN! used out of context too many times to count.

I think the reason we never heard about this kinda thing when Clinton was president was because he had more important controversies to worry about. Talk about having your hand in the cookie jar, no wonder he blimped out for awhile.

I also see that none of the more liberal posts are mentioning that this school has the right to control conduct at a speech conducted on it's campus. If Bush goes down to Main Street and starts giving an impromptu speech, by all means be rude and vulgar. While at a private or state-run school, for which all taxpayers contribute, you better watch your manners. I say if anyone got kicked out, arrested, or expelled, they deserved it. It was not the proper place to protest.

Well some are crying wolf. But as I said I know whats going on and am informed, I know the FBI now has the authority to read my emails listen to my phone calls without a warrant. I know that a Arabic friend of mind was incarcerated by the FBI and held for over 25 days before he was told why. My friend had just become an American citizen. It was later found he was held because he was ticketed two years ago for engaging in protest at my state capitol during a quiet gay rally. Their explanations for his being detained were vague and they were without a warrant but still he was taken to a jail. When word broke in the local media the owner of the news paper denied the story in press. THere was a small protest later but the protesters were gentley hushed out by police. This happened in CHampaign Illinois. Im not complaining for the fair treatment of terrorists im complaining for the fair treatment of American citizens. This isnt crying wolf this the truth this stuff is happening.
America is not as perfect as we like to think. As a gay activist I know full well im denied many rights as an American citizen. Legally in many parts of the US i can be denied credit, housing (which has happened to me), loans (also occured), bank accounts, health care (happened), insurance (happened), i can even be arrested in my own home for living with living with another of the same sex. Hell this goes on among many minority groups. So we arent crying wolf this stuff is happening, granted not like other countries, but still many contitutional rights are trampled on day by day. And now with an excuse of terrorist threats it will get worse. Catch the terorist not the innocent thats why we created so many checks and balances lets not ignore those balances for the sake of paranoia.
Also to put things in perspective yes Wtc was a horiffic terrorist attack on the US and we have had a few more but lets face it we are lucky it is not really bad we just got it all at once, other nations like Ireland have had this thing decades longer and have lost more. 3,000 may have died here but millions more have died in other countries by terrorism. I think many Americans are overreacting and panicing on terrorism a little to much.
I thank Wil Wheaton for being so brave in his effort to open minds and make people just a bit aware of their world.

I neglected to mention my friend was detained and asked if he knew any one who hated America, he was also asked and was investigated by the FBi if he had any links to Al-quieda. Their report ended with "unconfirmed". And although free from jail my friend is still under watch.

Dale, your last post was about the only one to make me laugh on this subject. I'm glad someone has the neurons engaged. However, almost everyone else is merely interested in hashing the same old tired inflammatory rhetoric and facts be damned.

Here, I'll take it up a notch. I heard Bush had 5 students jailed, beaten, and tortured! Who needs a source. I HEARD it or READ it. Let's say it was a local source. Yeah, that's the ticket...

The next time I ask "how could someone be so stupid?" someone direct me back to this topic please...

I'm a UK resident. It's so refreshing to hear something so...well, refreshing from a friend across the pond. All we get here is the constant tirade of imperialist nonsense about defending America's rights, when, as Wil rightly points out, those rights will soon be unidentifiable.

Even here our own beloved Tony Blair, ever determined to make us the 51st state, criticises those of us within his Labour Party who dare to speak out against the war and against George W Bush.

As you probably know, he's a huge national joke here. We have a cartoon satire TV show in which a Bush military aide has to use a glove puppet called Professor Liebstraum in order to explain the basic facts about the Arab-Israeli conflict to the cloth-eared git. Bush will only understand the puppet, which is ironic, as Blair the puppet will only ever listen to Bush.

Good luck, ye Americans who dare to speak out.

Yeah, controversies like the White House being to politicized, using White House equipment for a reelection campaign, and getting umm... oral satisfaction from interns and nasty habits with cigars. Instead we have a politicized White House (why is anyone shocked about politics in DC?), using White House computers to develop campaign material, and well... so Bush got Kennyboy Lay'ed in the White House instead of Monica laid, it's still the same. We're still getting screwed.

"Here, I'll take it up a notch. I heard Bush had 5 students jailed, beaten, and tortured! Who needs a source. I HEARD it or READ it. Let's say it was a local source. Yeah, that's the ticket..."

LOL! Thanks for the laugh. This board is very repetitious in it's arguments and I just find myself typing the same retort to their same old arguments over and over. It's like trying to hold back a sea of mediocre thinking and one-sided perspective with nothing more than a mop. Alwys good for a laugh and a reminder of how self-serving most people are though...

A college administration announces that students may be "subject to arrest" if they "disrupt" a speech -- a very vague description which leaves everyone here without enough facts to make an informed arguement one way or the other. Disrupting by throwing molotov cocktails? Disrupting by blowing air horns in the president's ear? We're not told what the actual intentions were, but Wil manages to assume the worst.

Furthermore, I must say that it's quite interesting that Wil and many (most?) others here managed to blame this on George Bush and John Ashcroft. This was the action of a college administration, not the Bush administration. Your willingness to jump on the blame wagon says much about your critical thinking skills. You probably didn't notice the discrepency, did you?

With all the talk about people getting arrested and held without warranty, I find it rather funny that the Bush administration is also getting hammered for NOT investigating, arresting, and holding some of the suspected terrorists directly and indirectly responsible for 9/11.

Whether he does or he doesn't, he's damned in the eyes of some people. I have a feeling that if Bush did something really great, like cure brain cancer, they would probably say it's a conspiracy against neurologists by putting them out of work.

SpaceWriter:
Right on. Knowledge is power, and there are an awful lot of people basing things without knowledge.

Dale S:
Actually, I wouldn't say that 95% of the posts up here are liberal, go-you-wil-down-with-dumbdumb-Bush posts.

youngartisan:
You make a very valid point. It kinda makes me wonder whether this country will ever grow out of its shell and into what it could be - the home of the free.

Gee... The President of the United States and his lackey's couldn't POSSIBLY have put any pressure on the college administrators to make everything run smoothly.... even if only indirect pressure. Bush is pathetic. Why is he pathetic? Not because he is a Republican, and not because he won the election through shady vote counting. He is pathetic because he constantly contradicts his own statements and policies. He used 9/11 as a means to coerce and sway public opinion in his favor, and detract attention from his recent win of Presidency. He likes to think of himself as a spokesperson for democracy while his actions show otherwise. And, he thinks that picking on Iraq is "just the ticket" and uses the whole terrorist issue as a very flimsy reason to pick a fight with them. If he had a backbone and stuck to his "principles" whether I agreed with them or not, I would at least have respect for him.
And to all of those constantly droning on and on ad nauseum about Clinton bringing shame on the Presidency..... Snore. One name springs to mind: Richard Nixon. Any defense on that one? Thought not. Clinton may have acted inappropriately, but who cares? Whose business was it to get involved? His wife's, that's who. The country and economy were great when he was in office, and the other countries have repeatedly expressed their preference for him. What does cheating have to do with your job? He was not a priest or a monk. Get over it. I suppose ten years after Clinton's presidency ended certain people will still be going on and on about what a "bad" president he was.
Get a new gripe because it is old.

LG, adultery is not a crime, but lying in court is. I have always stated that I had no problem with Clinton having the affair, but when he lied about it, in court while under oath, he broke any respect he had for the Constitution he swore to uphold. Then he lied to me, directly, on television. How in the hell am I suppose to trust anything this guy has to say? And no, not everybody lies about sex. But, I guess if the economy is good, then he can do any damn thing he wants. That is just sad.

He also had the affair in the Oval Office. I don't buy the "that was his personal office" story. Anyone in a corporation in this country caught fooling around in his or her office at work would soon be looking for a new job. I guess you would also not have a problem of him having affairs on the Lincoln Memorial. It's too bad they've closed down the Statue of Liberty. He probably always wanted to try that one out too.

Nixon did things that were illegal, yes. I have no defense because I know that he was wrong. The problem I have is that you HAVE a defense for someone like Clinton. It's not something I would be proud of.

I went to a taping of Saturday Night Live once and they had this big sign that hung above the audience telling me WHEN to APPLAUD!!

Can you believe that? Those facists!

If they don't like when I choose, or not to, applaud, they should go back to whatever country they're from!

I think Ed Asner was hosting that night too.

Buntz

wil: it seems sad to say this...but it takes courage for you post your opinions concerning the president on the blog...'cause you know the blacklist could be one of the coming 'security' measures...and that would leave you a permanently unemployed actor...and after they get you...sooner or later they would be coming for the rest of us! d. burr

Well, how mind bogglinly interesting. I've learned one very important fact from reading these posts.
NYC has not got a clue.
At all.
Printing NEVER AGAIN (look, i can do it too) lends no strength to you arguments whatsoever. for a start.
Secondly, the only reason Bush and Co are calling this a "war", is so they can treat anyone they arrest in connection to it as animals. There has not been a formal declaration of war, and in war...two armies are fighting.
The declaration of terrorists=nazi is histerically wider than arc...simplistic propaganda bullshit. The Nazis were not terrorists, they were a highly organized governament force, who controled a large army and for many years before war broke out, were considered as legit as most other governments. Terrorists use the tactics that they do precisely because they do not have armies to fight with, which is why an army cannot fight a terrorist organization.
Secondly, Bush deserves no more respect than that which is required for any president. He has not earned more. He has continually show that he is less than intelligent.."the best thing about books is looking at the pictures"..his actions in Alaska and concerning the Kyoto agreement are appallingly short sighted, his so called war has destroyed one vile government and killed a few terrorists and a hell of a lot of innocent afghanis and totally failed to catch Bin LAden, and he is resorting to nazi tactics to keep people from protesting against him. He has incredible double-standards, especially about weapons of mass destruction. Respect? He should think himself lucky that the protest was non verbal and non violent.
Since the protest was silent and passive, no arrests for "breach of the peace" could have been legal.
Finally, its interesting to note that NYC finds it upsetting and insulting that some people in the MIddle East want to wipe out America, and his words SEEM to suggest that he thinks that this means everyone in the Middle East. Yet he sees nothing wrong with making war in that area. Hey its all right to want them all dead, right? Because they wat us all dead?
No.
Bollocks.
NYC has also mentioned the idea of living in Iran for a year, and see how readily they want to cut your throat.
Try walking through Central Park at night.
Try walking through the Bible Belt wearing a heavy metal T-shirt.
Try being black in America, or since 9/11, being from the middle east or muslim.