It's an outrage, Wil. What's that sound I hear? Could it be sheep being led to the slaughter?

Who won "American Idol?"

Land of the Free my ass!

Its scary either way. I am normally always suspicious of most government Investigations but the threat is very real this time and I think many Americans realize this thereby allowing certain infringments of liberty to hopefully prevent or slow down the next 9/11. Of course the libertarian in me screams no way.

The terrorists have won, haven't they.

I have to say, as much as it pains me, that I've serious considered expatriation. :(

This will continue until we can educate the rest of the population. This may get me flamed.....but I do believe that the over use of patriotism in this country is the sign of ignorance. I love the US and have mostly respected it's laws, but the way that 60% of the population has this unwavering belief that anything the President does is for the common good scares the crap out of me.

I'm confused. Have these changes already been made or are these just proposed changes?

There can't be any way that this would actually happen in America, right? Or did I just wake up in Superman's alternate bizarro universe?

hmm..it is not surprising to read about this unfortunate turn of events. but the really sad part is that we as America have been overthrowing democratically elected regimes in other countries for years, and supported the mass slaughter of countless innocents because what is good for America is good for the world! i love my country more than anything, but i cannot stand by and listen to the hypocrisy of our government. we get irate and mad when so-called terrorists invade our soil and murder thousands of innocent people, but we do it all the time. remember grenada? remember vietnam? remember korea? we invaded another sovereign countriy's soil to promote our own selfish agenda without regards to welfare and thoughts of the people whose country we invaded. but in order to stop the insanity now gripping our country, we must stand up and speak out.

i suggest moving to canada. http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/09/04/pot_senate020904 and http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/09/04/pot_committee020904. not only is canada full of nice people, theres alot of fun stuff to do there too.

People are to busy worrying about their neighbors planning on doing anyhing, then to worry about what is happening to THEIR rights.

And the funny thing is most Americans have no idea that their fundamental rights are being taken away. They're too blinded by their 'great leaders' rhetoric. When I flew back home from Japan, they don't check your stuff as minutely as they do in North American airports. So technically, you can still take a bomb into the country. You just can't fly it anywhere within the country....

The hell?! I can't even begin to comment on this. It hurts my soul (very, truly). I just can't believe it...Most importantly, I'm afraid. What else can go wrong?

read Z magazine
get involved
do something to effect change.
whenever and wherever you can.

untill then, allow me to paraphrase a little:

Spoon boy: Do not try and excerise your civil rights. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth.
Neo: What truth?
Spoon boy: You have no rights.
Neo: I have no rights?
Spoon boy: Then you'll see, that it is not the laws that bend, it is only yourself.

What the fuck...

I had no idea it was this bad.

Can anyone say Joe McCarthy?

It's interesting to note that, in the southeast US at any rate, there have been an unusual number of productions of Arthur Miller's The Crucible springing up. Clearly I'm not the only one who has made the Bush/McCarthy link...

Canada doesn't look so bad now, does it?? HAHAHA
We should close our borders to American citizens who think that their country is better than ours even AFTER reading this. Of course, celebreties and cool people like Wil would be given full Canadian citizenship and cushy, high-paying, non-thinking jobs within the government.

As Yo!Philly wrote: "America the free my ass"

Oh Yes, E who posted about moving to Canada can sleep on my couch until he can get his own apartment. :)

Well, god bless the USA, and god bless George "I sold my soul for an 8-ball" Bush!

Well this is what you get when the Supreme Court appoints the guy who came in SECOND in an election simply because they like the sort of people he woould appoint (Aschcroft) instead of the guy who actually got the most votes in the elction.

Goodbye democracy, hello dictatorship!

And I yet continue my personal mantra of "First, graduate from college. Second, move to Canada. First, graduate from college. Second, move to Canada. First..."

I've been finding it difficult to not over react to various things during the past year. Its the things like this that make it so difficult.
I'm now thinking of those who don't believe the Patriot Act and things like it are just too extreme. I'm thinking of those who don't know what jingoism is yet they live it nearly every day.
Ok, have got to calm down. Some how those of us who are sane, intelligent, know how to balance idealism with common sense will find a way to make it better. Let's just try to keep calm so we don't go running too far into another extreme position & become just as dangerous.
Now, where to we begin to make the necessary changes so this doesn't go any farther? I think I'm going to start by writing to all my elected officials (local, state & fed) and tell them about what really matters to me, what has me concerned, afraid, so on. But what else?

You know what else is scary? How many people were more upset about a potential baseball strike? How many people were more informed about the details of that potential strike? How much more are people STILL talking about that near-strike than about stuff like this? How much more news coverage was there for the strike than things such as this?
I'm not knocking baseball or baseball fans. I did pay attention to the strike. But I have priorities. Some things matter more. Yet, I wonder if others have their priorities in order.

Americans to terrorists: You can have our freedom, but you can't have our baseball!

Poor taste? Sorry. I'm tired & I think I'm starting to over react. I'm going to go clear my head so I can think about this more rationally in the morning.

I wonder why the supreme court has not stepped in and struck the patriot act down. Have we lost the checks and balances provided by the judicial branch?

How long until we are no longer americans in our own country?

I've been repeating that mantra for some time, now...

"I love the US and have mostly respected it's laws, but the way that 60% of the population has this unwavering belief that anything the President does is for the common good scares the crap out of me."

The thing is... I don't think that 60% of the population really DOES think that way... I'm convinced they get their poll data from the White House cafeteria or something.

fucking scary...how did we let this happen?

Wil, I am pleased that you linked your souce. However, I wish Newsday.com would present their sources/evidence on that article. I find many of those hard to believe. But I'm not saying they aren't somewhat right. I just wish to see where these changes have been made (and if they have been made, that will also give me a place to start with my complaints to my Reps).

How many people from how many different countries were killed? Too many. And that was just Sept 11..... now there was the USS Cole bombing not too long ago, and then some US Embassies in Africa were bombed in 98 . And the list goes on and on as we all know. So are any of you who are spouting opinions doing/or have done things to protect this country? Or are you just going to complain and then talk about running off to Canada? Do something , be constructive where it will help, be a good citizen, be aware , be ready.

WTF?! I can't wait to see what Spudnuts has to say about THIS...

I actually read somewhere that a few years or so back a huge poll of people were read certain rights. They were then asked if they would vote for these rights. Many people said they would vote AGAINST the rights read to them... without realizing/knowing they were part of the constitution or bill of rights ALREADY.

No wonder the terrorists hit us so hard and we never saw it coming. We're like Ancient Rome before all the crud hit the fan and the barbarians sacked the place.

[/bad rant]

Makes me glad I Am Canadian, home of almost legal weed, and a country of very polite people, eh? Thank you for you time.

God forbid anyone makes sure those protecting your country are actual fighting for something worthwhile....

I'll tell you exactly how this happened. It started with that coupe of an election that we let the Supreme Court TAKE and give to the Bush family. No one to blame but ourselves.

*scrolls up and sees Spuds' comment* Whoops... heh... Either he doesn't care or he's actually asking that question. The insanity in me says he doesn't. I assume I'm wrong. *shuts up now*

This is scarier than a terrorists attack.

Thanks for posting this Wil.

For what it's worth I'm behind the regime change idea; Saddam is a very bad man but the problem is bigger here- Bush, Cheney and Ashcroft are far worse bad men who we can be CERTAIN have at their disposal weapons of mass destruction and mass distraction.

IF Saddam has gotta go then I think it's only fair that Bush and Company go too.

I can't believe how many of you are so suprised at this. Have you been living under a rock?!? It's called the Patriot Act, people. It's only been law for NEARLY A FREAKIN' YEAR now. Too busy with that flag in your front yard?!?

Vote. Remember to vote wisely
or thou shall have no right to
bitch and moan.

-B

Vote. Remember to vote wisely
or thou shall have no right to
bitch and moan.

-B

Actually, much of what you blame on President Bush, has been in place for several years. Perhaps not as public as now. But really in place no the less.

So lemme get this straight. We can't burn the flag, but we -CAN- burn the Bill of Rights? Right... Got it. Thanks.

I'm ashamed to say that I knew about all these occurrences, but didn't put them together into one big picture until you spelled them out here, Wil.
This is being pasted into a letter and an email which I'll be sending to all the senators and representatives who are supposed to represent me in Sacramento and Washington.
Thanks for the wake up call!

I just wonder how many overseas tar babies Uncle Dubya is going to saddle us with.

I was watching "Vicki Gabero show" (Canadian morning show) and an actor who was being interviewed on there said something that struck my mind as pretty damn correct about the USA. The outside world while mourning the horrible event of 9/11...hoped that that event would bring about a change to the US and make it walke up and realize its actions and try to improve its relationship with everyone. But instead the US pulled out the flags and patriotic music and has blinded itself in red white and blue.

hey its me hops..

just don't do anything bad and u will be ok.

ild rather live in europe so i can do bad things and kill people without the scourge of our government holding me indefinitely.

Who'd have thought that September 11 2001 would result in the USA becoming like an extremist Middle East nation?

Looks like the terrorists have infiltrated the committee that developed these proposed changes.

Now that's a sneaky way to combat capitalism and Western freedom. Those terrorist really were calculating and organized!

Wil,

Maybe it's time for at least some disagreement. These laws mostly have a narrow application, and are to be reviewed in 2005. I've read quotes from several constitutional scholars who say this is less restrictive than in previous wars, and that individual rights have been expanding for the past 30 years, not contracting. I can think of several areas where that's true.

1. FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION. This is regrettable, but I think absolutely necessary. We were attacked by radical Islamists, who find justification and impetus for their terrorism and jihads in their brand of Islam. Some mosques all over the world have been centers for indoctrination and recruitment for terrorists. The shoe bomber, and the so called 20th hijacker now on trial, both were affiliated with a radical mosque in London. Any mosque involved in such activity should be surveilled and there are some in North America). Any place of worship not involved with terrorism will be of little or no interest.

2. FREEDOM OF SPEECH. Distasteful, but so librarians will not tip-off those being investigated. I think we have many laws desiged to prevent suspects from knowing who might have been questioned in a criminal investigation.

3. FREEDOM OF INFORMATION. This large round-up is unlikely to recur unless there is another major terrorist attack. A public list of everyone detained would have told the real terrorists how well the investigation was going. The families, friends and employers certainly knew if one of theirs was being detained. Does the ACLU and the world also have to know?

4. RIGHT TO LEGAL REPRESENTATION. Convicted terrorists and mob bosses have tried to continue running their operations from prisons, and even use their attorneys as messengers. An attorney was recently charged with this. A rare circumstance that should be dealt with if attempted.

5. UNREASONABLE SEARCHES. Don't know any details of how this might work under the Patriot Act. Courts will certainly scrutinize it.

6. RIGHT TO SPEEDY AND PUBLIC TRIAL. Same as 5, but probably meant to hold uncooperative detainees, or those at high risk of flight, until satisfied they do not have info related to terrorist activity.

7. RIGHT TO LIBERTY. Doesn't bother me. This has been applied to two citizens, and the non-citizens at Guantanamo, people actually "caught in the act," so to speak. Padilla was trailed from Pakistan by the FBI, and the other apprehended in Afghan. with the Taliban or al Quaeda. They are held to obtain any information they have, and so they will not return to the terrorist activity, or association with the enemy, they were engaged in when apprehended. Do you think we brought all the German and Japanese POW's to the US for jury trials during WWII? I think the evidence against citizens should be reviewed by a court. Beyond that, hold them until they are no longer a threat. That could be a long time, but they made their bed so to speak.

I don't like any contraction of rights either, but this is for a specific situation and will be reviewed. The first to hide behind our constitutional protections are the absolutely guilty. We've seen what terrorists can do, and preventing further attacks seems to justify this.

None of us here really understand all the details, I think it's safe to say. The courts will review those details, and already are doing so in fact.

As terrible as most seem to consider the Patriot Act, I'm surprised we don't have numerous anecdotes of how the posters have fallen afoul of these laws that have been in effect for eight or ten months. Or, maybe it won't be as bad as most seem to think.

6.

I won a school public speaking competition years back with a speech about prisoners of conscience, mentioning someone in Chile my mother had been writing to for years, who was in prison, and I paraphrase from my speech:

'Not only without a trial, but even a reason as to why she is there'

I'd like to know if these changes listed are proposed or authorised.

Your Government (I'm in the UK) is going to have Amnesty International swarming all over them if this happens. Rightly so.

You can't, you just can't react like this. It's living in fear.

I bet anything that a good 90% of the population does not even realize that these changes have been made already. It is scary. The people that used to be laughed at for being conspiracy theorists now are having the last(?) laugh.

This terrorist has won, and his name is Dick Cheney. You don't honestly think Osama Bin Laden could of pulled off 9/11, do you? Why do we think is was Osama? Because DIck Cheney appeared on TV within an hour of the attacks and told the whole world "I know who this is, its Osama Bin Laden".

Me thinks it was Dick Cheney :)

Oh, and whoever mentioned moving to Canada, nix that one. I am an American living and working here and you would not believe what it is really like. The legal system is much more infuriating here, and those freedoms aforementioned by Wil mostly never applied in the first place. If it weren't for business obligations I would be headed back to the States faster than you could say Bush.

He who would sacrifice liberty to preserve safety deserves neither.
- Benjamin Franklin

The wisdom of our forefathers still rings true.

bring down the governmnet, they dont speak for us-
we're not fear mongering this is really happening-
radiohead knew all along

Dear Mr Wheaton,

Thank you for your latest post, which has been carefully noted down by my team of monkeys, and will in due course be added to the crate of "Wheaton, aka Crusher" evidence currently held in an FBI vault.

I very much look forward to meeting you in person some day. Fairly soon.

In France people would be on the streets for this,
in revolution mode.

why do US citizens just sit and take it ?

PS.
great site Wil, I'm becoming a regular monkey.

Danielle, while your right about parts of our Canadian legal system being fustrating at times... I'm betting part of that is because your not a citizen.

Also, the truth of the matter is that right now Canada isn't a democrocy either. Good old Jean, our 'Prime Minister' is really a dictator. Every Member of Parlament thats Liberal (Jean's party) that disagrees with him end up being forced out of their positions. Thankfully hes out of office soon though.

Vote Reform! LoL

Seriously now though... As a non American looking in... I'm at least glad that our dictator isn't takeing away our freedoms and rights. Patriots my ass... You call giving up what your supposed to be fighting for Patriotisim? I call that ignorance.

Squints

Well, it's your own fault - if you hadn't fought for independence you'd all be British now... oh, hang on, we've got Tony 'concerned smile, shifty repositioning' Blair.

Hmmm.
Au Res.,
Paul

i think its fake
to tell you the truth
i thought it was real,
but i mean read some other storys on that site.
like the one about how they "solved" tupaks murder.
last time i checked that was still unsolved.
dont you think if it wa solved it would be kind of a big deal?
and the story doesnt read very well.
it reminds me of all that religious propaganda i have read,
claims made with no facts to support them,.
i smell a rat.
maybe i am wrong but i dont care.
the way it looks is like,..
this whole site is like an unfunny onion.

You sheep are all so funny.

If Wil asked you all to jump off a bridge you would all happily do it.

Research these obviously biased posts Wil makes before you just agree with him out of kneejerk alarmism.

It's quite funny how you all put down US citizens for not thinking when you are just as guilty of it.

If Wil was a Rush-loving conservative, you would be agreeing with his call to end welfare.

Yuo=oblivious sheep.

It's funny how you immidiatley agree with someone that has a book on his front page called "EVERYTHING YOU KNOW IS WRONG". These books are for richkid anarchists and any self-respecting intellectual would be embarrassed to have such a biased,overly-marketed book on their shelf.

Nobody remembers poor old Ben Franklin.

To hops.

I live in europe and there are several countrys over here and they are all quite different. In my country most of the people are quite nice to each other. The police doese not have to watch every dark skinned man (or women). And also, our leaders doese not use terrorist hunting to gain poularity.

To the others.

I am sorry to watch the country from where the bluese was born fall apart because of some bad leadership. I know plenty of americans and they are all sane people with moral.

I'm not really surprised at the tone of the article. It seems to be Wil's usual "Republicans are evil and Democrats are good" slant.

Frankly, it wasn't merely the Bush administration that created and passed this thing. Most of the Democratic controlled Senate and divided congress voted for it.

Regardless, most of those things listed as removing our rights were already occurring. This, unfortunately, just makes it easier.

And before I get flamed, as I know I will, I'm not for these things either. I hope that enough of a backlash will occur that it will get repealed. But I'm merely concerned that slanting it against one specific group will cause that group's defenders to be forced to defend the patriot act whether or not they believe in it.

Not to dis Canada- a beautiful country, but Canada has more holes in its security than swiss cheese.

I always find it funny how people get so up in arms about their freedoms in this country. No one cares when the elections come- as witnesses by voting stats. But mention losing a "god-given" right and everyone gets crazy upset.

The problem with all this is that people have too much freedom. I am all for constitutional rights, but does anyone ever notice that criminals always hide behind them? This is because what's missing from the constitution is respect for your neighbors and for people in general. I only wish the founders had put that a "basic right" was to expect kindness and respect from your neighbor. And perhaps they could have put in that rights are not free- one has to earn them by being a good citizen- one who cares about the effects their actions have on their neighbors. That is, being moral and a good citizen becomes a contract between you and America.

So what am I saying? I don't know- but all this crap about leaving America and whining about the rights people are losing when no-one ever gives a shit about voting or gives a fuck about how their daily actions affect other people really seems hypocriticial and idiotic.

Go to Canada if you want, stay here and bitch if you want. But don't forget that being an American means acting like an American- not expecting everything under the sun without any obligations on your part.....

peace.

Right. Of course the people who are doing the least harm or don't plan on doing any harm will be the ones who have to suffer in the face of these changes. It's just like the feeling you get while passing through Theft Detector systems in stores: I'd never steal anything, but whenever I pass through those gates I always feel my heart skip a beat, like I've done something wrong. All hail legal rights!

Anyone know the second verse to "O! Canada!" by chance? The great white north is lookin' good.

Bish wrote:

Vote. Remember to vote wisely
or thou shall have no right to
bitch and moan.

Dammit, i did vote and as a voter from Missouri, I voted for a DEAD MAN rather than see ashcroft anywhere near a seat of power. I find it repugnant that anyone could even select him as AG, and I'm still a little upset that no one mentioned the fact that he was unseated by someone who had ceased to live during his confirmation hearings!

I hate George W. Bush.
That's not a recently decided thing.

I see the drooling mouth-breathers from Fark and AICN have joined us. Welcome! And please don't eat the toilet cookies.

That is all.

:::whispers in Bush's ear:::
"Can you say 'one-termer'?"

I would suggest reading :

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=36&ItemID=2068

Oi Wil,

I posted those changes to freedom on a local bulletin board and here is what a crazy fucking Nazi Republican had to say back to me:

"Freedom vs Terrorism by PapaDoug

I really don't know where you draw the line. We know the reason for monitoring religious organizations. I would think that if Baptists start flying planes into buildings and murdering people, we will probably have some agents in our pews. It is probably not fair to the Muslim people that have no part of terror organizations, but we have found out that a bunch of them do. Some that are not directly involved are actively participating in financial support. If you will remember, it was Clinton's group that pulled the teeth of the organizations we counted on to keep a lid on this. I know that generally speaking, military intelligence is an oxy-moron, but there were some good people doing good work. They were stripped of manpower and funding. Clinton and crew knew things were brewing with Osama and his crowd yet almost all surveilance was taken off. I don't understand this.
As far as Freedom of Information, I will leave it to the people that know more about National Security than me to make those decisions. We were set up ripe for picking with all the freedom of information in this country. Terrorists were using the same email systems we use to coordinate attacks from within our country and due to a relaxed atmosphere, they were able to find out anything they wanted. I had a Top Secret security clearance while in the service and didn't know squat. I guess there were things that an 18 year old didn't need to know. I had to depend on my leaders for guidance. I surely would not have wanted politicians to know what we were doing. We might as well have telegraphed the enemy with our plans. Things have not changed much. Our "reporters" have repeatedly endangered our service men and women by printing "leaked" reports. Politicians cannot keep from blabbing to make themselves look good, regardless of the cost. I agree that anyone involved in an investigation on terroristic activities should treat that material as National Security. Does this leave the door open to miss use? Of course it does but how else do you propose to keep information from the people being investigated.
I don't know of anyone being denied a lawyer. I know the second part of the Okla bombing has spent over 1-1/2 million dollars of the taxpayers money on lawyers. I am sure there are some suspected terrorists out there that do not have representation. To tell the truth, looking at the images of 9-11, I don't really care. There were obviously some knee jerk reactions after 9-11 but I think most were proper.
Due to the sheer magnitude of the attack, I am sure it will take some of the heathens a while to get to trial. I was and still am all for the military tribunals. This is a war and we are trying our enemies. Do you really think Lindh deserves to be treated with kid gloves? War isn't nice. It isn't pretty and people will be hurt. Regardless of what some of our European "friends" are saying, we did not start this war.

For those of you that have not had to be in a war, you need to understand there are different rules. In this war in particular, there is no clear front to fight on. The enemy does not wear different uniforms. With the racial structure of the U.S., it is hard to tell the enemy from your next door neighbor. Remember how many terrorists were trained right here? Had the FBI or another organization started asking them questions prior to the bombing, all you Liberals would have gone crazy protecting their rights! I believe that anyone in jail now probably deserves to be there and I just have to trust our country's leaders to find out the truth.
I hope that the political agenda doesn't keep our elected officials from doing their jobs. I watched a mockery of our system tonight when Democrats on the Senate Judiciary Committee kept a good woman from being able to accept the position she was very qualified for. A lot of Democrats are embarrassed by this also. She would have been accepted easily had it gone to a floor vote but partisan politics, namely pro-abortion Liberals laughed at the Constitution and kept her from being approved. There is no question why they did it. I just wonder if the American people will let them get away with it.
I am also wondering how you are enjoying President Bush taking a beating for not releasing information that would probably send Bill Clinton to jail? He is trying to preserve the integrity of the office after Clinton besmirched it and he will pay the price for it."
_________________________________________

And here is my response to him:

"Freedom's Death by Mr_Hate

You're right PapaDoug. Imagine that, MrHate saying PapaDoug is right. The rules really are different in a time of war. Let's just throw the constitution out the window and give the government free reign to do whatever it likes. Aw, heck, why don't we just make George W. Bush King of The United States. Better yet, let's rename the United States. We could call it Texas, or how about Bushtopia or Bushland, that one kind of sounds like England or Ireland. Old Glory could be replaced with a whitebackground that would symbolize the American people's surrender of their rights with a big green $ plastered in the foreground.

Yeah."

___________________________________

So why did I share this with you wonderful people? Because I want a big HELL YEAH from everyone who thinks "PapaDoug" is an insane motherfucker. Can I get a shout?

Follow along, please, for a point-by-point explanation of the SLANT provided by this post,

FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION: Government may monitor religious and political institutions without suspecting criminal activity to assist terror investigation.

This does nothing to prevent our freedom of Association! It only lays out the fact that you have no protection against being "looked at" if you are grouped with Less-than-savory people in so-called religions or political parties. While potentially dangerous if taken too far, it is not a clamping down on our freedom

FREEDOM OF INFORMATION: Government has closed once-public immigration hearings, has secretly detained hundreds of people without charges, and has encouraged bureaucrats to resist public records requests.

There have always been some closed hearings. Changing what should be closed is a simple policy change, not a change of a freedom. We have also "detained" many while papers are verified, stories are checked out, asylum is looked into, etc. this is not new. Then again.. Where is the proof? A simple list of wrong doing seams to be enough to garner a guilty verdict even though no list of people, places, or sources is available. Don't be suckered in by a long list of horrible things that have happened. Demand Proof!
"Encouraged bureaucrats to resist public records requests? How? Where? Who? Let's see some evidence. State sources, not hearsay.

FREEDOM OF SPEECH: Government may prosecute librarians or keepers of any other records if they tell anyone that the government subpoenaed information related to a terror investigation.

This is nothing new. Gag orders have been commonplace for nearly as long as the USA has BEEN the USA. It's called "tipping off the target" while a few of the people that read these posts would most likely prefer to have a "heads up" about being investigated, I prefer that law enforcement be able to investigate without that kind of tip-off.

RIGHT TO LEGAL REPRESENTATION: Government may monitor federal prison jailhouse conversations between attorneys and clients, and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes.

Convicted felons are not citizens of the USA in the common sense. They cannot vote, own a gun and lots of other things. They are in PRISON. The right to privacy is NOT something they are entitled to damn it, they are CRIMINALLS!
And Americans accused while in the Military are not guaranteed a Lawyer.

In short (for a long post) Get Some FACTS before you come to judgment. Stop being sheep! THINK!

Alacrity

I'll go you one better. Here's an article by Former Prez Jimmy Carter:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A38441-2002Sep4.html

The Republikinz are goin' down goin' down.

The Republikinz are goin' down.

My Fair Lady.

Bush and Cheney and Ramsfeld and Ashcroft are putting together a situation that is making Americans more and more queasy about what is going on in this country. This is not the America I thought might emerge from the seeds of cooperation sown in the furrow of 9/11. It might be the manure on top.

Here in PA, home of Homeland Security Boy Tom Ridge, Barbara Hafer (now State Treasurer, former candidate for Governor, and Republikin) recently dissed Mike Fisher, this year's Republikin candidate for Governor. She gave her complete endorsement to Ed Rendell, Demokrat of Philadelphia. I think the cracks are showing in our policical system. And I think when the next Presidentail campaign rolls around, Bush will have one or two albatrosses slung around his neck (vote shenanigans in Fla. last time, resriction of rights during his term, turning away from international cooperation).

The kinds of rhetoric and laws we have seen recently remind me of the kind of thinking that emerged in Nazi Germany and in Red-Scare era United States. Even the comments to this blog suffer the contaigion of this kind of thinking:

"If you're not guilty, then you have nothing to worry about."

"As long as you're a Citizen, don't worry, we're just mistreating non-citizens"

"Move along, move along. Nothing to see here."

The administration is asking me to trust them too much.

I salute Colin Powell and those who support his way of thinking in these matters. What does it mean for the US when the former 4-Star General, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, and leader of the last kicking of Saddam Hussein's buttocks, is telling the rest of the administration to calm down and stop being buttheaded righteous hawks? His last Presidential boss, George Bush I, had enogh smarts to rally a huge international coalition before striking out to liberate Kuwait. The current group seems to be saying "My way or the Highway, buddy."

The administration is asking me to trust them too much.

I see that the Newsday article was provided by the Associated Press. We must watch the newswires for more details (like actual cases, sources, and evidence for these points), and be vigilant. Vigilant that our freedoms don't get trampled by those who would profit from our fear.

WIL

PLEASE ADD THE FOLLOWING LINKS:

http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/Terrorism_militias/20011025_hr3162_usa_patriot_bill.html
http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/Terrorism_militias/20011031_eff_usa_patriot_analysis.html
http://www.ala.org/washoff/patriot.html

Perhaps the following might also be useful:

http://www.abanet.org/irr/hr/winter02/podesta.html
http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/forum/forumnew40.htm
http://www.aclu.org/congress/l102301j.html

I have more if you want.

WIL,
I'VE SAID IT BEFORE AND I'LL SAY IT AGAIN:
GOT FREEDOM?
VOTE LIBERTARIAN.
END OF STORY.
"THE PRICE OF LIBERTY IS ETERNAL VIGILANCE."
- THOMAS JEFFERSON

hm. shouldnt the blog entry be titled "Hell in a Handbasket..."?

G.

WIL WHEATON FOR PRESIDENT......................!

"THOSE WHO WOULD SACRIFICE LIBERTY FOR SECURITY ARE DESERVING OF NEITHER."
- BENJAMIN FRANKLIN
www.lp.org

I can't say it any better than ol' Ben in the post above.

Ahud

Expect the jail-detained population to rise; as for the rest of America, who's a spy?

Hmm...This kinda reminds me of George Orwell's Animal Farm. "All animals are created equal, but some animals are more equal than others."

Well, it seems that in the beginning during our forefathers that all (white) men are created equal. As history progressed, all (white) men and women are created equal. And as time went on, all men and women are created equal. Nowadays, all Americans are created equal, except for those that the government deem to be of suspicious nature, in which case, the Bush administration are more equal than others. Well, all we can hope for is to do what we can, I mean, the public was one of the main reasons why we finally withdrew from Vietnam...although somehow I get the distinct feeling that Junior is too busy following in daddy's footsteps to even notice...he's gonna be the plague upon our houses!

...Ahhh, good ol' George Dubya! One step away from changing his name to Adolf Hitler or Joseph Stalin...hats off to megalomaniacs everywhere!!!

Gaf wrote: "But don't forget that being an American means acting like an American- not expecting everything under the sun without any obligations on your part....."

I thought that *was* "acting like an American"....

American: To expect everything under the sun without any obligations on your part.

Wil,
WOW. I AM STUNNED.

F.G.

Okay, judging by the fact this comment thread was Godwin'ed about halfway into the post, shouldn't we end it now?

VOTE LIBERTARIAN! All other parties are some version of collectivism and socialism.

'Glad I'm not American. 'Love your people and the land, but not your current government. As someone said above, "'Land of the Free', my ass."

I think all Americans should read the book "What Uncle Sam Really Wants" a rather short book by Noam Chomsky. Chomsky is a celebrated and noted American politcal scholar, and although it was written late 80's early 90's, a hell of a lot of it applies today. It really describes exactly what US foreign policy has been aboutfor the past 50 years- for instance corporate America wants Western Europe to stay poor so they can eploit it. The best thing is it is heavily footnoted to provide those skeptical with a way to check Chomsky's facts. (Many of his books are good, by the way.)

This is totally horrific. It won't be long before all Americans go from "citizens" to "subjects" like Canadians. Oy!

Does this really surprise anyone?

In a country where the Supreme Court is allowed to choose the President (who received 500,000+ less votes) because "a recount would undermine his rightful claim" (Thank you Mr. Scalia) this should come as a shock to no one.

Day in & day out, we learn more & more about how corrupt this administration is yet there is never any reaction. Secret underground gov't, Bush knew 9/11 would occur, the attempted coupe in Venezuela, the murder of Candian troops under the guise of "friendly fire," the bombing of an Afghan wedding, Ashcroft's FEMA detainment camps, ENRON, Halliburton's connection to Iraq, etc etc etc.
Still there is no outrage. I guess the majority just feels safer have the lieks of Limbaugh, Coulter tell them what to think & taking a "blame Clinton at all costs" mentality.

PS. Don't be too surprised if the 2004 election is suspended due to martial law. It is a scary reality that is becoming all to clear.

Yeah, I remember all that when it was passed way back when. Fortunately, I haven't heard of any gross abuses of it in the Media - which, I've been hoping, has been trying to be all over this - or maybe, the Media can't report on it? Wouldn't you expect to be reading outrageous stories about this by now? But we're not! Iffy. It (the Act) has a two-year limit on it, doesn't it? Anyway I pray there's a limit, a fail-safe on it... maybe I better go look that up and make sure right now...

Lots of Spudnuts wannabes are emerging here… - how sad.

First and foremost: I guess we all forgot that little bitty article that Wil discussed a few days ago called “Open letter to America by a Canadian.” Well, I am a Canadian as well, and my dear compatriot could not have put it better. So – please Americans, stay put, do not move to Canada, we love it just the way it is and we do not need an influx of fanatic patriots form the south turning our country into the next US state. United we stand, my ass. The Bush administration ensured that you are ON YOUR OWN.

Artisticspirit was absolutely right in their post: “The outside world while mourning the horrible event of 9/11...hoped that that event would bring about a change to the US and make it walke up and realize its actions and try to improve its relationship with everyone. But instead the US pulled out the flags and patriotic music and has blinded itself in red white and blue.”

Gaf said: “Canada has more holes in its security than swiss cheese.” Perhaps we don’t have a NEED for such extreme security. Think about it. And when 9/11 happened, everyone in Toronto was NOT worried about our tallest buildings and landmarks as potential targets, but about the U.S. embassy! Think about that too. And get this, then the Canadians were blamed for allowing the terrorists to LEAVE Canada and enter into the U.S.! What the heck happened to YOUR responsibility to ensure that the terrorist don’t ENTER the U.S.?

Someone mentioned that 9/11 was just one of many attacks on Americans – a long history of numerous armed conflicts with people all over the world obviously taught you nothing. Instead of taking notice and reevaluating your military and foreign policies, you charge on in the name of “patriotism” and “democracy”. Same person said too many people died in these attacks – well, ask yourself then, is this the America your husband/wife is willing to die for? Is this the cause you are willing to lose them to? Violence begets violence begets violence – not very “constructive”, is it? There will never be an end. Someone very insightfully made a comparison with Ancient Roman Empire. Well, if you need a reminder, it fell with a big crash. So did Napoleon. So did Hitler and Stalin. Americans, as a nation, must educate themselves and stop buying into all that “patriotic” fanaticism your government is feeding you. Talking about being misinformed, danielle (an American regretfully living and working in Canada), you obviously never bothered to find out that we have a Constitution.

American: To expect everything under the sun without any obligations on your part. (by Cynical Foreigner)

And alexis, I am proud to be a CANADIAN "subjects".

My Gawd Carrowsboy, are you still believing THAT crap? Even the New York Times, who performed their own recount, said Bush actually won the election. True, they burried it in a small back page, but it was there. If you are going to carp on a point, at least use correct information.
Alacrity
(let the flames begin!)

Hmm. Posting a 2nd time after skimming all the comments - First, I have to agree with Mitzelflick, danielle, and William. I am surprised at the violent reactions coming from people in this comment box who obviously weren't paying attention last October when this was all over the news, being debated on the house floor, and many scathing articles were being written/ CNN crossfire commentaries being produced. Second, I have take YaKnow's comments and piggy-back off of them - referring to what I will not blatantly label "Wil's sheep". Wil, don't let your sheep talk you into running for office. They don't realize that the ability to make political distinctions and discuss them intelligently is not the only requirement for making a good politician/leader for the people. If it were, why hell, why don't we all run for governor, congressman, senator? Then we can be a 20382 party system? *chuckles to self* No offense, y'all, but you have to take a step back and read yourselves. Chaos!!!

Oh crap - that's "will NOW blatantly", not "not blatantly" - sorry, I hate to post a 3rd time, but that typo changes the meaning of the sentence. Now i'm frickin' annoyed at myself. *laughs!*

Amen to what Canadian said... I'm not Canadian but I can totally relate to what s/he says and I agree 100% with it!

http://www.economist.com/printedition/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=1301751

I can only say I'm glad they re-opened the airports so I could leave the country. Every piece of news I see from the States makes me glad I chose to leave when I did.

Sadly with many of the changes, I don't feel I can make any firm plans to come back to visit friends and family (not too keen on being "detained"); think I'll just "wait and see" first.

All I have to say is DUH!!

ok, that's not ALLL I have to say, but for the most part it sums it up.

The thing that really gets me however, is the fact that all the people who are outraged and whining are, more likely than not, just simply going to sit back down on their asses and not do a damned thing about it.

IF YOU WANT CHANGE THEN CHANGE SOMETHING DAMNIT!!!

IF YOU AREN'T PLANNING ON TAKING UP THE REINS OF LIFE THEN SHUT THE FUCK UP.

there's a simple motto that I hold dear and near...
if you don't like something then change it. if it can't be changed then don't FUCKIN bitch about it!! This whole issue just gets me pissed. Not because of the whole rights being taken thingie, which trust me isn't a surprise nor is it really that tragic seriously (how is it different??) but simply that so many damned Americans just sit down on their fat asses, letting them get fatter by the minute, and just bitch and complain about how fat they are!!!!!!!!!!!!! DUH DUH DUH!!!!!

ok, i'm getting off my rant because it's makin me crabby......AND, i'm gettin off my FAT ASS and making a difference!!!!!!! you should try it too!!!

Ember

I semi-agree with Canadian when they said about not making Canada the next state by flooding our country with american patriots. However, it WOULD be very "American" or "un-Canadian" of us, if you'll pardon the generalizations, to not allow anybody into our country. As far as being subjects, we're subjects in the British Empire, we're "Canadian CITIZENS". It means that we're people who live in Canada and have ties with Britain.
I do not hold anything against americans individually. I think that as a whole, the majority of the country is so blind with the "right to bear arms" section of the constitution that they'd be willing to let ol Dubya do whatever he wants, as long as they can keep their guns.

Where have you all been? You've not had any of these rights for years. Specifically, the last two rights listed were denied to one Kevin Mitnik for a number of years.

Youre rights are an illusion, always have been.

There was a report a few weeks ago that more than half of all Americans now believe the First Amendment goes too far in the rights it guarantees.

Sometimes this country disgusts me.

Actually, the big change is that the government has altered the right to reflect the way that the government was already behaving.

So says me.

just a small point of information for Canadian:

"Someone very insightfully made a comparison with Ancient Roman Empire. Well, if you need a reminder, it fell with a big crash."

Most ancient historians would nowadays dispute that strongly. Gibbon's Decline and Fall covers a period of 1500 years, after all...

Which is not to say that I necessarily disagree with the rest of what you have to say.

You know, I've been trying to comment on these things for AGES now, and all I got was called a "gutless euro-liberal whiny turd". I mean, you'd think someone would notice...but nooooooo.

I mean, seriously guys. Spending more than, say half an hour a day, reading real newspapers and being objective about your informaton sources, is all it takes. I knew about this months ago, when all the British Media went into apoplexy over the Patriot Act. We couldn't believe that it was allowed to happen. When our Gov tried to bring in similar measures we managed to make them back down on most of them.
When I read about this the first time round, i thought,
"Thank fuck I'm not in America"
I still think that. I mean, Tony Blair may be a lying little shit, and he may be "Shrubs Poodle", but we still have a democratic control over him.

Bush is using a time honoured tactic (or at least, someone else is doing it for him, it does require concentration). He's keeping your attention focused on external situations to ensure he can yank your rug of liberty out from under you.

Question: Whats the point of fighting dictators around the world to ensure world peace, if you don't have any liberty left once your finished? By all means lets get Al Quaeda, but all these security measures will simply ensure that Bush has a tighter control over your lives, and won't really stop a determined terrorist from carrying out some level of atrocity.
You have to ask yourselfs..why are these laws REALLY in place? To protect us, the people, or to protect the power of them, the Government?

Individually we can get angry.

Together, we can, and will make a difference.

Seek out, and attend peaceful protests in your area, write letters, but most importanly: EDUCATE EDUCATE EDUCATE.

An informed population is an empowered population.

Scary stuff. Almost as scary as planes crashing into buildings.

Of course, I saw an interview of Clinton where he said that he agrees with what Bush is doing, and thinks that Saddam should be deposed. So it *isn't* just Bush saying these things. Yes, this disturbs me a little, but it's nothing that hasn't been happening little by little over the years, and that includes the Clinton years, folks. Our government has become too big for it's breeches, plain and simple. We have turned a good idea into a monster, and I am not sure there is any way to go back now.

Government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial? Freedom of speech? They don't really sound like they belong together, do they?

Well, we shouldn't really be surprised, should we? This administration was NOT elected by the American people, but was put into power by a fradulent, biased court. The election was STOLEN from the people. Can you say 'coup'????

This is the scariest bunch of goons to come to power in US history, and you can bet that the shit is still gonna hit the fan with these guys. "We ain't seen nothin' yet!"

LeeB

Gah!!! ::whimpers:: I really want to know what is going on in the mind of our President? It seems not much by the look of it. Being paranoid and iron fisted will only lead the U.S. down a path that we don't really want to go down. The U.S. was a proud nation, proud that we skipped all that arcaic shite that Europe went through. ::scoffs:: Some of these rights harken back to those primative days that we are so proud of never having gone through. I say Boo on it, these changes will only cause more strife and discord in an already tense nation.
but that is my half a cent...

Lee,

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but Bush would have won no matter how many times they recounted.

http://www.nytimes.com/pages/politics/recount/

"The American Dream"

Yes, a biased court did influence the 2000 presidential election: The Florida Supreme Court, by approving recounts (2) only in predominantely Democratic precincts. Thank goodness the U. S. Supreme Court stepped in and ended this attempt to hand an unwon victory to Gore by not allowing this cherry picking approved by the FSC to go on.

It's amazing how few know what actually happened during that time. Or, maybe it's not amazing.

Alacrity, here is some info regarding the FL recounts...

Question: Who actually received the most votes in Florida's 2000 presidential election?

Answer: Al Gore. State election officials ultimately declared George W. Bush the winner by a margin of 537 votes, but during and after the election dispute, questions remained about the uncounted ballots of 175,010 voters, ballots that had been rejected by error-prone tabulating machines employed in many Florida counties. Confusion and conflict, much of it generated by partisan intrigue, prevented these ballots from being counted during the election controversy. However, in 2001 every uncounted ballot was carefully examined in a scientific study by the University of Chicago, which concluded that when all the votes were counted, more votes had been cast for Gore than for Bush.

Q: Why did some earlier post-election studies say just the opposite, that is, that Bush had actually won after all?

A: They did not really say this. They reported, instead, that Bush might have kept his lead if the manual recounts of machine-rejected ballots had been completed along the lines either requested by Gore or initially mandated by the Florida Supreme Court. In these recount scenarios, not all of the machine-rejected ballots would have been included. However, just before the U.S. Supreme Court intervened, the judge overseeing the final statewide recount was preparing to announce that the recount would cover all of the previously uncounted ballots.

Q: Are manual recounts inherently biased or subjective?

A: No. In any election, many discarded ballots contain votes that are completely unambiguous. Of particular importance in the 2000 election were the ballots on which a selection had been made from the list of candidates and then a name had also been printed in the space for write-ins. Although these "write-in overvotes" were automatically excluded by tabulating machines, they contained unambiguous and legally valid votes whenever the write-in candidate matched the candidate chosen from the list preceding it. In its comprehensive study of all the uncounted ballots, the University of Chicago found that these write-in overvotes heavily favored Gore.

Q: Why were more errors like this made by Democrats than by Republicans?

A: The social characteristics of Florida Democrats. The two groups making the most errors were African Americans and seniors, who are core constituencies of the Florida Democratic Party. Seniors probably made errors because of weak eyesight and other physical limitations caused by aging. African Americans may have made errors because of the anxiety they are likely to feel at the polls, where in the not-very-distant past they would have routinely faced threats, violence, police harassment, and worse.

Q: Why should ballots with mistakes on them have been counted at all?

A: The law required all discernible votes to be counted. Rejecting ballots only because they contain technical errors would have been a violation of Florida election law (Section 101.5614(5)).

Q: Did Florida officials faithfully execute the state's election laws?

A: No. The New York Times and The Washington Post discovered evidence that Florida's governor, secretary of state, and speaker of the House, all Republicans with close ties to George W. Bush, used their offices to manipulate the election controversy and secure Bush's victory. During the controversy, they collaborated either directly or through intermediaries with the legal and political advisers of George W. Bush to: (1) put pressure on the state's top law firms not to work for Gore; (2) bend the rules on absentee ballots to allow improperly marked absentee ballots to be counted; (3) block, stall or discredit manual recounts; and (4) create fears of a constitutional crisis so that the U.S. Supreme Court would intervene.

Q: Will changes to state election laws that were enacted in 2001 prevent the same problems from recurring?

A: No. In fact, the badly named Florida Election Reform Act is in many respects a step backward. It was enacted before the Times and the Post reported that Florida's public officials at the highest levels had collaborated with George W. Bush's advisers to block fair and proper execution of Florida's election laws. Consequently, the legislation focused on modernizing Florida's vote-casting and vote-tabulating equipment but failed to deal with the more serious problem of partisan corruption in the state's system of election administration.

Q: What can be done to assure that Florida's election system is administered properly to minimize voter confusion, count all valid votes, and reduce bias associated with race and age?

A: Amend the Florida Constitution. Florida elections are unlikely to be fair and accurate until their administration is constitutionally removed from the hands of partisan officials and prohibited from being biased against any groups of people who face special challenges when voting.

http://krd.realcities.com/ads/media/tallahassee/news/opinion/popup.htm

Of course, additional votes were wrongfully excluded through the purge of the voter roles ordered by Katherine Harris, where errors in identifying people as felons were not corrected. An estimated 22,000 Gore votes were not allowed because of the purge. This should be #5 in the sixth answer above.

The first thing doubters will bring up is the overseas military vote. They think those votes were disallowed. Not true. Gore asked that they be allowed, even the ones that were not legal votes because they were sent after the election ended.
********************************************
After the media backed recount, all the headlines in the "liberal media" said bush won. But if you actully read the articles bush only one if everything was done the same as it was already done. If they did any kind recount, whether the most liberal or the most conservative versions, Gore won. And that does not even include adding in the votes of the people who where prevented from voting by jeb & katherine's voter roll purge.

Also, here is a great video from Greg Palast that should leave little doubt.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/cta/progs/newsnight/palast.ram

*groan*

Anyone want to place bets on how long it takes for the whole "Who Won The Election" debate to be rellegated to the History books?

I'm betting longer the "Who Shot JFK" debate.

Go outside and get some fresh air and sunlight before winter comes, forcing you to stay in your hermetically sealed houses!

Will you all stop quibbling! Please! For those of you who thought yourselves 'free' within this country, you just haven't done enough to capture the notice of our government yet. You are not free, folks. You are prisoners of the least common denominator and the continuing manipulation of the constitution through the corporate mass media.

And to the conservatives out there who feel safe at home with your guns, the Army has been given the right to conduct offensive operations on American soil. Let's see you stand up to an Abrams tank.

...unless they are a well liked celebraty.

no, really this is kinda heart breaking. everything that our country prides itself on is slowly slipping away.

HOLY. SHIT.
When do we get the yellow stars?

Canada is no better, I live here are there is just as much corruption. I plan to eventually move to the Netherlands if things get worst.

Weel, boys and girls, it seems to me that the timing here was perfect. Last week, we all voiced out opinion to Creation, and our cry was heard and acted upon. Now It's time for us to pick up our pens once more and write to our repective congress-people. I know that many of you, like myself, are skeptical that it would actually work, but changes like these, for what ever the reason, are unacceptible and unconstitutional.

Ay, gods.

In response to those stating the Newsday site is biased, or the article may not be grounded in fact:

The source of the article Wil quoted was Newsday, but the author of the article, as was clearly stated in the post title--is the Associated Press.

Now, the AP may be many things, but for the most part, it is GENERALLY regarded as a fairly objective, accurate, unbiased news source. (as unbiased as a 'news source' can get anyway)

The 'Overview of Changes' article is simply a summary of several articles and discussions on law changes since 9/11 that have been appearing in most major 'news sources' for the past few days.

None of the changes listed are factually incorrect. And honestly--that article could have been written in much more inflammatory language. It was *extremely* mild, comparatively.

As others have already stated, this is nothing new. These changes are months old.

And for those attempting to minimize the impact of the changes, just browse through the AP Wire, or the New York Times or the Washington Post for a bit. Put in some search terms like 'detainees' or 'Ashcroft' or 'FBI'.

I'd post dozens of links to relevant articles, but I don't want to post anything 'biased.' :)

And you know...I knew this already, was already terrified and infuriated by the Patriot Act and other such things...but seeing it all typed up neatly and comprehensively...

Gods, I'm depressed. Forget Canada--I vote for Tierra Del Fuego.

You're a full grown war-state now. :) Welcome to the beginning of your hell.

Oh and one more thing... if you think this is all because it's the Bush administration, guess again. Both your parties are evil, Clinton praised the Turkish government for their dealings with "terrorism" (which was of course slaughtering innocent Kurds).

I see that I am not the only one considering dropping my American citizenship.
Bush is a @#%&*!! MADMAN.
Anyone with half a brain would see that he is just using 9/11 as a reason to start a war with Iraq/terrorists, etc. Hmmm... I wonder if the reason he is doing that is to detract attention from is pathetic stint as "president" and his utter inability to do anything competently.
I didn't like or trust the guy from the get go.
Here is the main problem here, though: Unless people actually get enough guts to join together to stand up for their rights, the government will continue to do whatever the hell they want.
Except for a few groups, that has not happened. The average American is so caught up in their day to day life, they won't even realize what has happened to their rights until they are gone.
I would move to Canada, where it seems that you still have your basic rights. The American government is quickly turning into a dictatorship badly disguised as a democracy. It is disgusting and a complete sham.
Wait until the anniversary for 9/11 comes around. Watch the speech that Bush will obviously make. There will be flag waving and patriotism galore; enough to make even the most empathetic person puke.
The irony is, Bush will speak of how great this country is because we are "free" etc. ad nauseum, yet he and his cronies are the ones taking away the freedoms we have had for 200+ years.
Like I said, Canada is starting to look good.

Well, blame the 50.whatever% people that voted for Baby Bush. The guy is an idiot and total moron. He has the Gestapo in his administration and as staffers but he's too stupid to realize it.

Damn! How do I update????

Scott,

"Well, blame the 50.whatever% people that voted for Baby Bush."

Actually it was 48% that voted for Baby Bush.
49% voted for Gore.

The problem is that for those of you living in the States, it very difficult to get information on the outside world that is not american orientated. When was the last time you saw an article on the news that had nothing to do with the States?

Please try and read news from other countries, it will open your mind to why so much of the rest of the world has a real problem with that dunce, Goerge W. Bush.

until there's no longer threats of terrorism by RELIGOUS FANATICS, I'd much rather live in a country with these laws, than in the open-door country we had before 9/11..I'll take safety for 500, alex, thank you very much

I had to come back to this and see what ended up being posted next - glad I did. (And it gave me a chance to post my two fav personal URLs equal linking coverage from my name up there ha ha!) Anyway, there seems to be a debate in here about whether Americans are free or not.

It's obvious: yes and no.

NO CIVILIZED ORGANIZATION OF PEOPLE CAN BE DEFINED AS FREE as many of you here have defined it. A NATION IS MERELY A CONSENSUS BETWEEN MINDS THAT THERE EXISTS A NATION. That's it. That's all there is. And with that consensus comes RULES. INHERENTLY.

Are we free then? Well, Of Course we are! The rules I and my fellow Americans agree to in this illusion of America are much less strict than they are in most other nations. And there is some give and take - in some places, they can do things I can't legally do here, and vice-versa. But I can't think of ANYTHING I want to do that I can't legally do, aside from things that are totally selfish in nature and add nothing to my community (i.e. destruction og property). IF I WANT TO ORGANIZE A REVOLUTION TO CHANGE THE NATURE OF THE ILLUSION, I CAN. I have the right to organize people to act to change the rules of the current illusion. That's all revolution is. Or, I can act within the rules, and use due-process to make change. Those are my only legitimate options.

All things considered, I'm pretty damn content with this illusion we're all participating in (if you know we exist you're participating) given other situations I could be living in.

Signed ~pup, fierce patriot, Inde-damn-pendent, American, and not one to forget my American origins as pauper farmers in Ireland, land-owners in Britain, religious outcasts in Scotland, losing-war-tribes in Germany forced into Denmark, whence we became religious outcasts again, African hunters and gatherers rounded up and brought to the New World as slaves, etc. etc. etc. We are all one, people, seriously, and it's all been done before.

I still haven't checked to see if the Patriot Act expires on its own or if it has to be legislated (like that's gonna happen easily!) Dang.

Welcome to the begining of the end my friends. It looks like we've been duped.

"Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them."

This is the scary one, because without the right to know what we are accused of and question our accusers, we have no hedge against any hidden agenda. There simply is no defense against a hidden or personal agenda.

psh..FREEDOM FROM UNREASONABLE SEARCHES..happens all the time...before sept 11th. happened to me as a matter of fact, 3 years ago. Not a new thing.
RIGHT TO LEGAL REPRESENTATION..also not a new thing

FREEDOM OF SPEECH right. like we ever had it in the first place.
FREEDOM OF INFORMATION..have you ever TRIED to get public records? You have a better chance finding the holy grail.

FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION..how do you think they found out about Waco?

These rights (as well as many others) have been being violated for years. The problem isnt the government, it's US. WE are responsible for the downfall of everything WE say we cherish. The government (and the media) doesnt control us. We control them. Makes it even worse when we cant blame an autonomous evil entity. Which is why it doesnt change. Noone wants to punish themselves for their own stupidity.

kim

I'm posting everything in one post and I won't be responding (e-mail me off list if you want to continue the discussion):

Derek: I've been considering it myself for some time now. However, my wife seems dead set against it - not out of any love for America, but for purely superficial reasons (mostly materialist) that I detest.

Canadian: Smugness is shitty regardless of which side of the border it comes from.

Sean: Where'd you move to?

Ember Ryan: There *is* no way to change things in this country. We're a one-party system disguised as a two-party system. The masses are content to have their DVD and DSS and free delivery and drive-thrus and Monday Night Football (and more recently, their empty nationalist rhetoric). I did my part to change things. I voted for Nader. It doesn't work. It will never work. It's corporate idiot A or corporate idiot B, forever and ever, world without end. America is done. Game over.

Canadian (Redux): Again, mind the smugness. Never forget that America is your Mexico.

evan: The religious fanatics were a threat to us even before 9/11. Even before Islam became a household word. Don't forget that most Americans think that "Freedom Of Religion" means freedom to be a Baptist or a Methodist.

See you in Utrecht.

http://subvert.us/

america is your mexico *cracks up*

Ah, the sound of liberal blather. The reason you cats are so pissed is that you dimwits 'got no ground to stand on, no position on which your candidates can run and the logic (and brain power)of a fruit fly sucking on the edge of a glass filled with everclear and vodka.
Oh, so sorry, that(3000 +)people got in the way of those planes, they should have been more considerate, as not to cause YOU any inconvience.
'Night 'tards.

Well, I just saw a documentation about this here in europe. I must say you americans are in a very difficult situation right now.

But I give you one thing to think about: It's funny that the USA declares their society as democratic when only 50% of the population really goes voting.

Here in germany nearyl 80% of our population goes voting - and so is thinking in a democratic way.

Maybe your country don't want democracy anymore. Maybe the cicizens of the USA don't want democracy anymore and that's why they let this happen.

Sometimes a man only sees a good thing when he had loosed it. Maybe that's gonna have to happen to the USA.

Its nice the way any argument against the loss of American Civil Rights can be scuppered by mentioning 9/11. (not). All those people died so it must be ok for the Government to shit on the very rights that they are supposed to uphold, right?
Wrong.
Reppression of the American people is not the way to go and never will be. Anyone who thinks that the Patriot Act and its ilk will only be used to catch terrorists clearly have no understanding of the concept of corruption. What happens if the Patriot Act is used against people who speak out against the Government? Exactly what system is in place to prevent that from happening?
Its so much easier for gun-bunnies with no real argument to dismiss Liberalism as "blather", than it is for them to put forward a strong, well argued case for why we should all kow-tow to "Big Brother". Maybe Orwell was just 8 years too early, huh? I wonder when they'll start brainwashing people (oops looks like they already have.)

The German guy, T.S, pointed out that sometimes you don't know what you've got till its gone. Trouble is, theres people in the US who are activly trying to give it away.

Hey guys, Canada is no better, we do whatever the States does. Its already beginning. As soon as it gets too bad I will be out of here as soon as possible. Countrys not to go to are as follows,: USA, Canada, and England. The only country I am thinking about is the Netherlands. If weed is made legal then I will believe in Canada again because it will prove that we are not just another state, but if its not...forget it.

mccarthy was the front man for an inquisition that created terror for many americans...others lurked in the background letting him do the dirty work...now the offspring of those lurkers would try to sell us this load of crap in the light of day!...the attacks of september 11th were bad enough...at some point you have to realize the the cure they are proposing is worse than the disease.

Chris

Why won't you go to England? I admit that its not Scotland, but its not too bad..

Narf

Don't ever get carried away and give up your USA passport! With that, you get respect, deference, and special treatment just about anywhere you go in the world. Try traveling with the passport of some small third world country and you will quickly regret it.

Touche, Jim. Touche.

I say not go to england or scotland is because they support Bush.

Well Jim

With a American passport you can also get tortured and killed in many countries aslo. With a Canadian one you may have a chance in those same places. In france you god if your Canadian:)

I may try for dual citizenship with Canada and the Netherlands...if it's possible.

Or I would suggest moving to Austrailia or Greenland..NOTHING ever happens there... I will learn to play with Kangaroos and play the dingereedoo...or however its spelled. -Hits Bush with a large golden strap-on-

At least the government hasn't impinged on Americans unalieble(sp?) rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Oh wait, yes they have....

I am not a happy citizen right now. I have this overwhelming urge to jump under the covers of my bed and hide, yet I know that I am not safe there either. What is this, 1984??????

Chris

I'd like to correct you on your point about England and Scotland.
We do not support Bush. At all.
Tony Blair, our Prime Minister, supports Bush. However, the rest of the country is growing more and more set against Bush and his aggression towards Iraq. The Father of the House of Commons, Tam Dalzell, has demanded that Parliament be recalled so that a proper democratic discussion can take place on the current situation. The last MORI poll showed that in the past month another 12% of those polled were against Phoney Tony's stance alongside Bush. Phony Tony has been forced by the electorate to produce all the evidence that he has concerning Saddam's supposed arsenal, and every newspaper I've read (most of the British Broadsheets) view Bush as a derisable, thick, baw-faced, glaikit wee moron whose dog is more intelligent than he is.
Heres a few quotes from one of todays newspapers on the situation.

"Mr Blair faces a restless band of TUC brothers and an equally restless band of fellow MPs. The prime minister and"

critics of Mr Blair's interpretation of the "special relationship" say he is being far too compliant with the directions of this US government.

HOW can Blair reconcile his two recent statements; one to the effect that he would never support America in a cause he believed to be wrong out of blind loyalty, the other that Britain must be prepared to pay a "blood price" in order to guarantee the continuance of the "special relationship"?

No way do we support Bush. The guys a freaking pyscho.

(from scotland)

I'm not saying the people of Scotland and England support Bush but the government does, and thats what counts in the end. Its almost like the citizens of the world are paralized and do not protest. In the 60's there was constant protest, now with the younger and evidently weaker generation people they do nothing and except everything handed to them with a "what can you do" attitude. Look at what the RIAA and the MPAA are doing. Its insane! Just about 5 years ago when Intel wanted to put codes in the pentium 3 processor's people freaked, now our rights are being removed from us one by one and only few say anything and nothing gets done. Nobody is truly free anymore.

Regardless of what you say Herr Fluffy, so like the sottish little fly I decribed above so is opinion of your arguement now. I know being in Scotland, the people killed by terrorists on the 11th last year is of little importance to you, but it does mean something to me. I don't want to see those barbarian devils do that again, to you or me.
That said, what more proof do you people need that Saddam is dangerous, he has violated EVERY treaty he's ever made, he has vast stockpiles of biological and chemical weapons, he has been attempting and has perhaps been successful in the manufacture of NUCLEAR weapons. Do you Herr Fluffy want another HITLER to gain these weapons or stop SADDAM NOW. History shall remember you and the liberal lemmings like you as hypocrites and appeasers that allow, ney support actions that lead to innocent deaths. You in Britian are lucky to have had good leaders since WWII, those like Churchill and Blair, Thatcher and Major. We in the US were not so lucky what with Clinton, Johnson, Truman and Carter. Clinton had the chance to get bin Laden on a silver platter, but NO, he refused. Even after the 1st WTC attack, the embassies in Africa, the USS Cole, all OBL related. He did nothing, the blood of those men, women and children are on Clinton's hands. WE WILL NOT ALLOW MORE AMERICANS TO DIE. And damn the French, Germans, Canadians and other appeaser nations to HELL. The Germans are far the worst, they should know the danger and evil a fascist leader like Saddam and Hitler present to their own people and the world. If another attack occurs because those bastards sit on their hands and say we need more proof, while an attack occurs, may God save their souls. In my opinion they are WORSE than the terrorists themselves, because they know the result of their inaction and do not care, why because it will kill Americans.
We need to respond NOW to the threat of IRAQ and other muslim terror sponsoring nations. I am going to boycott goods from nations that are appeasers, you should do the same.

God bless the USA and the UK.

NYC

Lay off the Caffeine, big guy. Its seriously doing bizarre and unnatural things to your nervous system.

On a serious note, I'd like to remind you of my position vis a vis 9/11. I'm Scottish. Woopdeedoo. Nearly 3000 people died. Woopdeedont. I was shocked, horrified and sickened by what happened (still am, as a matter of fact, I do not look forward to whatever sick things may be perpetrated on Wednesday by some freak-ass pyschos). All human life is fairly precious to me. It doesnt make a blind bit off fucking differant what race, colour or creed they are, if they die unneccesarily, its a terrible thing. OK, are we understanding this one? In NO WAY am I unaffected by what happened.
As for Saddam's "vast stockpiles". If these stockpiles really exist, why don't Bush and Blair show us the EVIDENCE rather than claiming it is so and trying to leave it at that. If they know for certain, why can't they show us what they have. I'd be more willing to support a war on Saddam if I knew there was concrete evidence supporting it. I'm not going to get behind a military action, which WILL lead to the deaths of civilians no matter how much retoric gets spouted, basing all my support on blind faith.When the head of the UN Weapons Inspectors admits to having been part of an effort to falsify reports about Saddams weapons capability, it puts all such claims in a bad light. I want to see proof, not retoric.
A wee point about Shrub, he keeps saying that Saddam is the most aggressive man in the world, yet it is Shrub who HAS control over the biggest nuclear arsenal in the world, and its Shrub who is advocating war.

I would like you to provide on shred of evidence that shows that I "support actions that lead to innocent deaths". Go on. Lets see what you got, or are you afraid to be shown up for spouting lies? And your equaly bollocks claims of "appeaser nations". Where the fuck do you get off? You seriously want us to send our Soldiers and technology and weapons to fight in YOUR war, to die at your side, without seeing the evidence that says we should? Would you do that? Would you go charging off, gun in hand, if Britian had asked for American aid in fighting the IRA, without giving you a reason why? Or would you do as Europe has done, and actually try to think about ALL the consequences, and want to evaluate the EVIDENCE. THeres that word again. Im am sick to the back fucking teeth of being told that Saddam has weapons by Bush and Blair. SHOW ME. Don't try to lead me by the fucking nose. If the proof exists, there is no reason not to show it.

Boycotting goods from nations that are appeasers? Sounds good. How about...America!
The CIA has given millions of dollars in funding to terrorists such as bin Laden,Sadam Hussain,Arafat,Idi Amen,fidel Castro. As the Economist magazine put it, "[U.S.] policies in Afghanistan a decade and more ago helped to create both Osama bin Laden and the fundamentalist Taliban regime that shelters him."
Between 1979 and 1989, "the CIA and Saudi intelligence together pumped in billions of dollars worth of arms and ammunition," according to the Economist. But when the USSR finally withdrew in 1989, the administration of George Bush Sr. turned its back on Afghanistan--leaving it, in the words of the Economist, "awash with weapons, warlords and extreme religious zealotry." OSAMA BIN Laden, a civil engineer and businessman from a wealthy family in Saudi Arabia, was one of the first non-Afghan volunteers to join the mujahadeen. He recruited 4,000 volunteers from his own country and developed close relations with the most radical rebel leaders in Afghanistan. He also worked closely with the CIA raising money from private Saudi citizens. "In 1988, with U.S. knowledge," reports Jane’s Weekly, "Bin Laden created Al-Qaeda (The Base): a conglomerate of quasi independent Islamic terrorist cells spread across at least 26 countries... Washington turned a blind eye to Al-Quaeda, confident that it would not directly impinge on the U.S." "This is an insane instance of the chickens coming home to roost," one U.S. diplomat in Pakistan told the Los Angeles Times. "You can’t plug billions of dollars into an anti-Communist jihad, accept participation from all over the world and ignore the consequences. But we did."

US money funded the IRA. Terror groups around the world have been supported and in some cases trained by the CIA. America has supported terror groups in the recent past. Does that mean that America is an "appeaser nation". Look to YOUR orb for warning, before you look to others.

Oh, and the "Herr Fluffy" thing. Lame, very lame.

Your calling Bush Shrub, is an insult to the US, and every citizen. Your mock "feelings" for the terror victims is repulsive and enfuriating. You say you out of one side of your mouth, and you want proof with the other. What proof do you need, a nuke in Edinburgh? A biological attack on London. You stupid twit, inaction will lead to death.
Let us get one thing straight, the socialists in England, like Chamberlain CAUSED WWII by appeasing Hitler, allowing him to eat up more and more territory, build his army in VIOLATION of every treaty he made. Saddam has done and is doing the same fucking thing. Hitler killed civilians, guess what so did Adolph. My EVIDENCE of you, is your support for the MURDERERS is that YOU want "evidence" or "solid evidence" be specific what the fuck do you need? Another attack, more civilian deaths, a nuclear attack on Israel? YOU want to appease them. It is evil, just like not allowing Jews to enter England, the US, Canada or other nations from Germany because there was no "solid evidence" that Adolph was gassing them. FUCK that logic. If the evidence you need is dead Americans, then you are a terrorist too.
Down with the appeaser nations may they pay for their crimes against humanity. You know the IRA thing is a LIE, something you are very adept at believing.
Good bye you tool, Herr Fluff (the consistency of your arguement is the same).
Liberal blather.

NYC

What did I tell you about that damned caffiene?
I know you are unlikey to respond to this post, but you don't think I can let such a unmitigated personal attack against me go unanswered, do you?

"Your calling Bush Shrub, is an insult to the US, and every citizen."

- Actually...NO, monkeyboy. Its an insult directed at Shrub..and only him. If you choose to take it to be something more, then thats your perogative, but I would have to suggest you get to a registered specialist and get them to have a look at that oversized chip on your shoulder.

"Your mock "feelings" for the terror victims is repulsive and enfuriating."

-My feelings for the terror victims are far from "mock", as you put it. They are real and powerful. The true strength and depth of them is between me, God and One Other. They know the veracity of my emotions, and I see no reason to waste further time trying to explain them to a cheesedick such as yourself.
I feel sympathy for all terror victims, everywhere, where you seem to care only of they are American or Israeli. There are thousands of people dying, right now, as victims of terror, in places that you have probably never even heard of.
Also, I have to question how such a bigoted, hypocritical State-speak zombie such as yourself can possible think you can dare to decide whether or not MY feelings about any subject are genuine or not.

"YOU want to appease them. It is evil"

-I have a passion for words and for INFORMATION, something you seem to lack. Let me enlighten you.
APPEASE:- to pacify somebody, especially by acceding to demands.
APPEASEMENT:- the politic strategy of of pacifying a potentialy hostile nation in the hope of avoiding war, often by granting concessions.
Now, if you look at what I have written previously, you will find out several things. First of all, I do not want to pacify Saddam by acceding to demands. He has made none that I know of and I would not advocate giving him anything if he did. Secondly,I am willing to back the war against Saddam IF and WHEN the EVIDENCE is put forward to show that it is neccessary. All I want is reasonable proof that Saddam is as big a threat as Shrub and Blair say he is. If that proof is forthcoming, then I will happily wave the flag for Queen and Country. I'll quote myself. "I'd be more willing to support a war on Saddam if I knew there was concrete evidence...I'm not going to get behind a military action...on blind faith".
I am an adult human being. I am capable of making my own judgements...so allow me to do so. As you say inaction may mean deaths, but so will action. People will still die, it just depends on who and how.

"If the evidence you need is dead Americans, then you are a terrorist too."

- Nope. The evidence I need is physical proof of the existence of the weapons, satillite photos, perhaps.
On the subject of evidence, I'm glad to see that some of it is finally being made available to the British Media, see WWW.Theherald.co.uk if you don't believe me. In light of this, I am more inclined to support action agaist Saddam than I was yesterday. Like I said, don't lead me by the nose, I can make my own judgements if you let me. If Saddam really does have Weaponised Ebola, them I am all for sapping the fucker.
Aha, you cry, Fluffy does a U-turn! Nope. Its the same stance I have made all along. If the evidence exists, show me and I will support he action.

But I also want people like Bush and Blair to examine the possible consequences. What if Saddam used the action agaist him as an excuse to try out his biological toys on his neighboring countries? A cornered wolf has nothing to lose. IF we have to go into Iraq, lets not be dumb about it.

I notice that you class asking for evidence as "appeasement". Why then, are you happy to kill on the word of a man, without seeing for yourself. To kill on a mans say so? Can we say, HEIL BUSH, HEIL BUSH!
You talk of Hitler, and say that any country that will not aid you against Saddam is "appeasing" him. Just like America did during WW2? You sat on your ASSES and waited until Pearl Harbor to get involved. Many big American companies gave money to the Nazi's. Look to yourself before you accuse others.

"The IRA thing is a LIE"

- Really? Pretty big fucking lie. Or is it easier for you to turn a blind eye to certain harsh realities. Such as this one.
"At the height of the IRA bombing campaign, American citizens were supplying much of the money that the IRA needed to buy explosives and weapons, through an organisation called Noraid. I am sure that they justified their support for IRA violence by believing that the IRA were freedom fighters, not terrorists. The American government presumably saw the IRA in the same light, when they refused the British government's request that they shut down Noraid."
"following the emergence of the modern republican movement in 1969, the Provisional IRA quickly turned to its Irish-American supporters for funds and guns.
More than 30 years later, those support networks still exist"

Some LIE, huh?

But its ok. We can still go to war with everyone. I mean the entire Middle East is one big stockpile, and its full of A-RABS, not real honest to goodness American Humans. Lets see how big the river of blood can get before we drown in it, weighted down by the policies and actions of the US. Lets help Israel butcher the Palistinians, its not as if they are real people are they, NYC? I wonder did anyone else see that INTERNATIONAL NEWS FOOTAGE of Israeli tanks driving OVER palastinian ambulances, and fire engines riddled with bullet holes from Israeli guns. Who has the biggest nuclear and military arsenal in the Middle East? Israel. Where do they get the vast majority of their weapons? The US.
Lets help Shrub turn the world into a bloodbath for his own personal glory, because only Americans really matter, eh NYC?

Your arguments are a childish as Shrubs, your information is even weaker.

Well, I've managed to make it to 35 years of age without voting once but I have to say that the actions of our current President has convinced me that come next election I WILL be voting, and NOT for George Dubya.

Daryl,

I moved to fluffy's home, Scotland the Free! Currently going through final process to move into newly purchased flat in Stirling.

With regard to Americans looking to move to Canada: good luck. I think Canada must have the most restrictive immigration policy in the western hemisphere. Even if you were married to a Canadian citizen (as I am) you would no be guaranteed a settlement visa as you still have to pass the same tests as any other immigrant. Also, the fee last time I checked was US$1500.

I know a girl who had to move to scotland because he couldn't immigrate to this country. Not for at least another year.

Kerrington, you might want to hold off on that thought about moving to Australia because you think nothing ever happens here...our Prime Minister John Howard is just as trigger happy as Bush. I wouldn't be surprised if Howard and Bush become best buddies and have slumber parties...hey, don't look at me...I did my part in the election: I voted for the other guy.

What about the temporary lift on the second Amendment right to bear arms if you intend on flying? Don't we have the right to freely travel from state to state? Do we no longer hold onto ANY of our rights? They will shut down the internet, they will close the borders, they will strip search you randomly, and they will call it justice!

just to let you know -- if you are looking for a Florida gubernatorial candidate with the Rat Stuff, check out Mickee Faust, Rat CAndidate for Guv.

He was born in an old gym shoe. There were just two of them after their mother finished eating. One ended up in Orlanda where he's passing himself off as a cartoon mouse. The other became Mickee Faust, a beer guzzling, cigar puffing rat with an attitude.

Mickee may not have the money, the family, the connections, the money, the experience, the gravitas, the the money of the other candidates but he has the best bumper sticker: Vote Vermin!

Yrs,
Terry Galloway for
Mickee Faust an official, duly registered write-in candidate for Florida Guv.
For your very own Vote Vermin bumper sticker just write me and ask. Incidentally, Faust has 15 soild write-in votes, all of them out of state.

I'm scared... I felt 9/11's pain before it happened and feel Iraq is in for the same misery... misery we may share... =(

Please... if you are in a position of power, capable of making a change, please do something... 9/11's guilt riddles but I felt it too late... prayerfully your reading this makes the difference of all

Sounds like the terrorists won